A question for Candadians and UK folks and the Universal Healthcare

[newfoundland]

The national Health Service in UK, with all it's difficulties is absolutely brilliant. Just had two free ops for DCIS and to clear margins, free; all detected by free mammogram screening. Will be having Tamoxifen free, and radio therapy, free of course. My husband will be having cardiac pacemaker battery changed tomorrow, free. Because we are retired all prescriptions are free. So are prescriptions for children/students and unemployed people. Working people pay for prescriptions at about $9 an item (regardless of the cost of the drug). We all get free screening for cervical cancer after 21 years and mammograms after 50 years (unless there is a family history when it starts younger). Also annual flu vaccines are free as is the annual health check including blood tests for over 60s. All maternity services including pre/post natal care is free. Age is no barrier, people of 96 are given operations if necessary. You are never too old, too poor, too sick, or have used up your allocation of money. Yes hospitals can be busy and waiting times in A and E can be long, but only for what we call the walking wounded. If you present with chest pains/ breathlessness or have apparent serious symptoms you are rushed through immediately, if you have cut your thumb and need a stitch, you may have to wait. Who's complaining? It doesn't matter if you are on dialysis for years, or need a heart transplant, you will never ever need to find the money! All this for approximately $100 in every $1000 earned. Incidentally, eye care is free for over 65s, children, unemployed, low earners, as is dental treatment (not cosmetic, but clean, scrape, polish, fillings, extractions, bridges and basic implants and of course dentures). We contributed all our working lives, including all the long years when we were blessed never to have to go near a doctors surgery, but have never ever had cause other than to praise this wonderful system. It upsets me when I read on this forum of people having a struggle to find money for health care. I hope the US gets such a system only better!

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

Being as child birth complications have already been brought up, "The business of being born" is a documentary that everyone should see about how messed up the US medical system is. Remember C-sections make them more money an clear the bed sooner an get the doctor home for dinner quicker.



I like my government medical (Medicaid) I think it works. We do need to get people in the "know" from other countrys that have been doing it for years to come in an write the new laws to make it work here. No point in going back to the beginning when we can just build on there experience.

 

[RabbitMage]

Another interesting documentary is Sick Around The World, which can be watched here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/view/

It examines the health care systems in the UK, Japan, Germany, Taiwan, and Switzerland.

 

[Buff Hooligans]

So why is it that we keep producing babies and prolonging the pain of trying to exist happily on earth?

 

[call ducks]

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[rebelcowboysnb]

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Good show. Just looked it up on netflix an watched it...Didn't load from pbs.

I liked Taiwan's setup.

 

[PineappleMama]

*raises hand* Some talk about 'free' and others say 'nothing is free' and one mentioned that when you add it all up we pay more than them or vice versa...

So, I'm curious... what IS the rate of taxes y'all are paying to cover these services? A percentage thing?

Originally SS was voluntary here, but it's since become mandatory... but we do sort of have a retirement thing... probably not exactly like the UK one, I don't know... but it's a similar thing so we can figure that.

And then there's Medicare Tax as well... Medicare is NOT available to all, but we all pay for it... so we have those numbers...

According to http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10003.html (just plain ol' employed, the self-employed gets more complicated)

SS Tax = 6.2% on earnings up to $106,800
Medicare Tax = 1.45% on all earnings

So... DH's checks 7.65% is taken out for these two items...

The last quote we were given for health insurance, just for me, DH is covered through work, did NOT include the kids... was $400/month... that's high because it's a small business so there's no discount for volume and other employees/spouses bad things effect everyone else's rates... very annoying... ANYWHO, $400/mo... no eye or dental...

DH makes 560/wk... x4.33 weeks = 2424.80 Gross...

7.65% SS/Med =185.50
400.00 Insurance = 16.5%
(again, not including the whole family but for the sake of argument)

SO.... for our household to have a similar system to UK's it'd run us 24.15% of our income.
And remember I said similar because that does NOT count the deductibles, co pays, etc involved... just bare bones numbers.

So... back to my original question... UK folks... what percentage are y'all having to pay to have your system? Are you paying less than that 24.15%... and yet getting a better system for your dollar... or are you paying more... and if more how much 1% or 30%? And further in your opinion do you feel that % is totally worth it? Seems most do, but I'm curious.

As much as I loathe the idea of big government sticking their nose into my OB/Gyn appointment... well black and white facts can help. But the system you have, IF I'm understanding correctly, isn't what's planned for here at all. I may be 100% wrong I admit... but to me it seems like the system isn't changing... all that's changing is that we're now being forced to purchase a private company's product... whether that product is any good or not, and if we don't we will be punished... given American's rebel attitude I donno that that was the best course of action... seems like it was just doomed to stir up a fight. But besides that, it doesn't sound at all like the systems you guys are describing... not to me at least? But again, I may be TOTALLY wrong about what the new stuff means... enlightenment welcome. Whether it's about our new system, the likenesses/differences between it and UK's, or just about UK's any info to help understand is useful.

Right now I've really scared that we're going to be in it deep when this thing kicks in... $400/month doesn't seem like much to a lot of folks I'm sure but when after taxes taken and rent, utilities, state required car insurance, etc are paid you're only left with 1000 or so to cover school (home), college textbooks, gas in cars, cleaning (home and body) supplies, TP, etc and food for a family of four... well taking a $400 bite of of that is going to make things a lot harder around here... supposedly we're poor enough to where we get some kind of tax deduction to pay for it... but what good is that going to do us this month? Sure in February when the return comes in we'll be okay, but for the other 11 months of the year?? SO, yeah I'm concerned simply because of the numbers involved. From what I understand that's not the way it works in UK and elsewhere... is that right? It's auto-taken from your pay and you just walk in if you need to? Set rate, no switching companies or them deciding to hike your rate? And no punishment if you can't afford it... ala my In Laws who brought in less than DH less year and were quoted insurance at FOUR TIMES the price? Sure with this new law they can't be refused... but that isn't going to make it any easier to pay for it.

But then, if you make it where everyone pays X... well is that enough to keep the doc's offices open? They've got rent, utilities, nurse/etc payroll... not to mention crazy high malpractice insurance... and that's on top of having to pay back some pretty large student loans and hoping to have a home, spouse, car, and children of their own... I've read stories already about doctors being forced to retire because they just can't afford the overhead... what happens if their pay is ordered to be cut more? And beyond effecting the docs already in the business, what motivation is there for students to study medicine if they KNOW that it could lead to this kind of struggle? If you wanted to have to work 60hrs/wk just to keep your head above water you could save yourself the cost of college and just work at McD's... SO much is 'what if'... makes me nervous.

But then, often change is... this country wouldn't even exist if not for change so hopefully we'll get it straight and be the better for it.

 

[thaiturkey]

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To answer your question, which I've highlighted in bold above, I can say only that it's complicated to explain in a few words. Here's a note of the rate structure:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/nic.htm

You need to know how the rates apply so look at this too:

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/life/benefits/national_insurance_contributions_and_benefits.htm

Remember that those contributions include the basic State retirement pension and I have no idea what the health cover part of them is. We might guess at two thirds but it's only a wild guess. Only wage earners and their employers pay but everyone benefits. So, if one parent works, the spouse and children also benefit. In fact, anyone who is a UK resident or foreign born spouse of a UK resident can receive free treatment. Also, the unemployed, disabled, chronically and terminally ill or retired benefit without paying. The UK has reciprocal arrangements with other EU States for the benefit of travellers and migrant workers.

The rate is the same irrespective of your age or physical condition. The treatment is full treatment for whatever you need, including psychiatric care.

Maternity care was mentioned earlier. Mothers and babies receive ante- and post-natal care and nurse and doctor care during and after labour. That includes any emergency treatment and a hospital bed for mother for a few days. I recall a story about a mother in a remote farmhouse who went into labour one day when the farm was cut off by snow. No vehicle could get in our out. An air ambulance helicopter went out and took her to hospital. There was no cost to her or her husband and they probably had insufficient money to pay anyway.

I've never heard anyone in the UK suggest that the NHS should be scrapped and no-one has ever said he's OK with his private insurance so why should he pay tax for the benefit of others. Health is a social matter and not a political one. It's about the right to equality and fairness and support in the community. The NHS is not perfect but for Brits, there is no palatable alternative. Most of Europe is the same.

 

[Dunkopf]

Yes the UK and Canada and especially Sweden have a much better plan than we do. The point is moot though. Americans aren't ready for that kind of change. It may happen eventually as more and more companies can't afford to offer health care. When 60% of Americans are without health care people might catch on. Then again they might not. Those 30 second sound bites are pretty effective. You'll never have actual figures on cost. They will either be much lower or much higher for obvious reasons.

What it boils down to in my opinion is this. If you have a good health plan through your employer then you are better off than the UK and Canada. If you don't have a good health care plan then you should do everything you can to stay in shape and then prey you don't have cancer or some other issue that good eating and exercise can't prevent. Cause if you do have one of those issues, you are good and truly SOL.

SS and Medicare are retirement plans and have helped millions and millions of people. Without those 2 plans we would have millions of additional people living in cardboard boxes and not getting health care when they are most likely to need it. Thank goodness. Could you imagine if everyone had their SS invested in the stock market during the last fiasco. It would have been a tragedy. Millions of Seniors with nothing to live on. As it was millions of people had to put retirement off.

 

[thaiturkey]

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I'm sure that some advice has been taken and some fact finding junkets have taken place but no government wants to admit to taking advice from other countries.

The legal side, as a technical exercise, would probably be easy enough. From the little that I know about your Constitution, a tax funded universal health system would be in line with its provisions on citizens' rights. The tax system would need to be reformed.

In the UK the decision was made to have State owned and managed hospitals and use private ones only if State beds were full or a very unusual need cropped up. That you would have to work on in the US. If a US State system used private hospitals as a norm the taxpayer would probably pay more than necessary. So, you would need either to build new hospitals or have the State buy up some private ones.

The UK achieved the change to the NHS straight after WWII when the country was drained of cash, bombed to hell and deep in debt. Perhaps the richest economy in the world could also manage to make the change if it had the will.

That brings me what, as an observer from afar, I see to be your biggest hurdle in this matter. Few US citizens seem to know much about State run universal health care other than their own assumptions and the rantings of politicians who have their own agenda. However, information is all over the internet and it's possible to be better informed than your politicians might like you to be. I hope that the posts here of those of us who have lived with universal health systems help those others who would like to know more.