Accepting what might be and pushing forward.....need advice on multiple concerns.

[TropicalChickies]

So, Chonk passed away about an hour after my last post. Bonk is still showing symptoms, too, of being "off." She is staggering like she's lost her ability to keep balanced. (Not sure if I mentioned this earlier, and my phone is acting up, so I cannot read the prior pages on here.) I know MS can cause lameness, but as I was reading more this morning, it seems the lamenss is due to swelling and soreness in the joints. I do not see that in any of the symptomatic birds, and I cannot find any info that shows MS causes balance issues. Bonk will stand up, be fine for a moment, and then start running sideways, and end up falling over on her side. If she's standing (more like squatting), she will have a wing out to help stay upright. This morning she tipped on her side, and my daughter helped her get upright. On another note, Honk is still doing very well.

I spent an hour reading up on diseases & treatments this morning while holding the pullet who I thought was going to pass...yes, she is still hanging in there. The other pullet has remained the same....still having issues walking, and I find her sitting on her hocks often. Are loss of balance and sitting on hocks symptoms of the diseases I am trying to treat?? If so, can these symptoms reverse with continued care, or are they signs that these chickens are past the point of recovery? I know another necropsy may be beneficial, but I haven't asked my hubby yet ...like I mentioned earlier, he feels this whole experience has put way more stress on us, and he wants to be done with it all. He knows I'm very attached, so he is being supportive as best as he can, but I know he will draw the line and make a rational decision over my emotional, if need be.

The tri-sulpha meds were finished yesterday, so I gave everyone poultry cell in their water this morning. I will give Bonk and the healthier of the 2 pullets vitamin B Complex and vitamin E. I don't know that I want to force anything into the one...I am just trying to keep her comfortable.

Both bacterial and viral infections can cause lameness, swelling, and/or soreness in joints. E. Coli does, I've both read and seen. And I recall the necropsy you had done was positive for E. Coli.

There are different families of related antibiotics.

Tri-Sulpha is a sulfur based antibiotic.

There's also the penicillin/amoxicillin family.

The -cycline family, like oxytetracycline and doxycycline.

And the floaxin group, like enrofloaxin.

Words like "Baytril" and "Tylan" are just brands. It's the active antibiotic ingredient that counts.

Sometimes -- and I'm not recommending trying this willy nilly-- an antibiotic from one family will work better than another on a particular bacteria in a particular bird. I had very good luck with oxytetracycline injections for a pullet with a bacterial infection when Tri-Sulfa didn't work. Just for an example.

E. Coli is known and dreaded for its antibiotic resistance in chickens.

I'm not a vet and I don't know anything else about your poor birds other than what you've shared here. I'm only saying that sometimes changing to an antibiotic from a different "family" is sometimes necessary.

And sometimes, longer term administration is needed.

Did someone recommend the Tri-Sulpha to you? If so, can you ask that person for their advice?

I'm sorry if I'm sounding vague... I don't want to tell you to "just try another antibiotic". And if you do, wait at least 3 days for them to clear the Sulfa from their systems.

 

[Allsfairinloveandbugs]

@Chopper923 , here is an article that complements what @TropicalChickies just said, and also what the necropsy showed. I don't know if you will find any info within the article helpful, but am posting it just in case.
https://extension.psu.edu/colibacillosis-in-chickens

 

[Chopper923]

Thank you both, @TropicalChickies and @Allsfairinloveandbugs , for your posts! If you have had to repeat any info to me, I apologize. I've reread replies on here over the past few weeks multiple times; I've read similar posts hoping to gain more insight; I've research on google - and I feel like my brain is not retaining some info. The doctor from the state lab just called me. What a great facility and what amazing people I have communicated with at this place. She called me just to express her thoughts on the chicken they examined. She said she has never seen a bird with this amount of toxic overload of Coccidiosis. Interestingly enough, recently I had read another member's post about retreating for Coccidiosis 10 days after first treatment (I am almost positive it was advice from @azygous to someone.) I was thinking, crud...I didn't do a 10-day retreatment. I don't even know how I missed that when treating my birds in the spring and a couple of weeks ago. Of course, it makes perfect sense that you need to break the cycle, just like any parasite. I will look into the other antibiotics for potential treatments. And I will read the article! I appreciate any info sent!!! I will also look back info my notes on the Tri-sulpha!

 

[Chopper923]

Both bacterial and viral infections can cause lameness, swelling, and/or soreness in joints. E. Coli does, I've both read and seen. And I recall the necropsy you had done was positive for E. Coli.

There are different families of related antibiotics.

Tri-Sulpha is a sulfur based antibiotic.

There's also the penicillin/amoxicillin family.

The -cycline family, like oxytetracycline and doxycycline.

And the floaxin group, like enrofloaxin.

Words like "Baytril" and "Tylan" are just brands. It's the active antibiotic ingredient that counts.

Sometimes -- and I'm not recommending trying this willy nilly-- an antibiotic from one family will work better than another on a particular bacteria in a particular bird. I had very good luck with oxytetracycline injections for a pullet with a bacterial infection when Tri-Sulfa didn't work. Just for an example.

E. Coli is known and dreaded for its antibiotic resistance in chickens.

I'm not a vet and I don't know anything else about your poor birds other than what you've shared here. I'm only saying that sometimes changing to an antibiotic from a different "family" is sometimes necessary.

And sometimes, longer term administration is needed.

Did someone recommend the Tri-Sulpha to you? If so, can you ask that person for their advice?

I'm sorry if I'm sounding vague... I don't want to tell you to "just try another antibiotic". And if you do, wait at least 3 days for them to clear the Sulfa from their systems.

Just read your response, and again, I appreciate your detailed explanation of the info you provided. Did you learn all of this from owning chickens and past experiences?

 

[Chopper923]

@Chopper923 , here is an article that complements what @TropicalChickies just said, and also what the necropsy showed. I don't know if you will find any info within the article helpful, but am posting it just in case.
https://extension.psu.edu/colibacillosis-in-chickens

Great article! I've read thru it twice, and I have saved it for my husband to read. There are some things that are over my head, and I'm sure he can explain it to me. (I stuggle with anything too scientific-y, which I remember reading that you enjoy researching these things...I envy that of you!)

 

[TropicalChickies]

Just read your response, and again, I appreciate your detailed explanation of the info you provided. Did you learn all of this from owning chickens and past experiences?

Yes. I've mentioned that my original flock all came sick with respiratory and other problems. I didn't have as many as you do, but I went through much of the same confusion, overwhelm and sadness. But wow, I learned a lot.

 

[Chopper923]

Yes. I've mentioned that my original flock all came sick with respiratory and other problems. I didn't have as many as you do, but I went through much of the same confusion, overwhelm and sadness. But wow, I learned a lot.

I recall your mention of heartaches you've dealt with on a personal level....when I read your explanations on various health (parasites, respiratory, etc), medicinal (from antibiotics to dewormers, etc), and other valuable info, you sound like you should have a degree in Poultry Science! But this is all stuff you have learned along the way??

 

[TropicalChickies]

I recall your mention of heartaches you've dealt with on a personal level....when I read your explanations on various health (parasites, respiratory, etc), medicinal (from antibiotics to dewormers, etc), and other valuable info, you sound like you should have a degree in Poultry Science! But this is all stuff you have learned along the way??

Yep, you will be degree worthy yourself after this experience!

 

[TropicalChickies]

She said she has never seen a bird with this amount of toxic overload of Coccidiosis.

An addition to my other comment on antibiotic families:

Sulpha antibiotics are the only family that treats both for bacteria and coccidiosis. Coccidiosis is not caused by bacteria, but by a protozoa (different kind of organism). But supha kills both bacterias and cocci. Other antibiotics are not effective against bacteria.

If you do switch to a different antibiotic, keep that in mind.

In this case, since you have both bacteria and coccidiosis present, it might be wise to repeat the sulfa treatment in 10 days to break the coccidiosis cycle and keep getting the bacteria count down.

 

[Kiki]

Thank you both, @TropicalChickies and @Allsfairinloveandbugs , for your posts! If you have had to repeat any info to me, I apologize. I've reread replies on here over the past few weeks multiple times; I've read similar posts hoping to gain more insight; I've research on google - and I feel like my brain is not retaining some info. The doctor from the state lab just called me. What a great facility and what amazing people I have communicated with at this place. She called me just to express her thoughts on the chicken they examined. She said she has never seen a bird with this amount of toxic overload of Coccidiosis. Interestingly enough, recently I had read another member's post about retreating for Coccidiosis 10 days after first treatment (I am almost positive it was advice from @azygous to someone.) I was thinking, crud...I didn't do a 10-day retreatment. I don't even know how I missed that when treating my birds in the spring and a couple of weeks ago. Of course, it makes perfect sense that you need to break the cycle, just like any parasite. I will look into the other antibiotics for potential treatments. And I will read the article! I appreciate any info sent!!! I will also look back info my notes on the Tri-sulpha!

Is that the only thing the lab told you they found?

I have not read the entire thread.