ACV in hot weather

[Digby57]

Thanks! All great points, some I have seen before. I can't seem to find it now, but I saw some talk of hypercalcemia resulting from too much ACV. Now, I know nothing about a chicken's parathyroids, but that's never good.

And that brings me back to the point of how much is too much? I do not feel that its a waste, even if it doesn't add all that much to a diet including fermented feed, as long as its not too much - its fine. The stuff is inexpensive when you consider a small flock.

Well, it seems like I see something of a consensus that 1 Tbls per gallon is a good place to start for adult chickens. I'm going to go with 2 Tbls per quart (X8) and offer that in one drinker and pure water in another. Not as an experiment that I expect to see some evidence from, but because I have 2 waterers and why not at least try? Maybe I will clearly see that they prefer one over the other, even if that doesn't exactly prove anything. And I agree that it would not.

Sorry for hijacking the OPs thread, it got a little off track. If I find anything convincing one way or another elsewhere I will let my friend from Florida know.

 

[lazy gardener]

Quoted from Chick kat:

Have you ever noticed how when you put out clean water -- and some spills on the dirt---That's the water that the chickens think is really yummy? that's what mine do. Now I think that there are minerals that they get from drinking the dirty water that the waterers lack.

In Gail Damerow's book Storey's Guide to Raising Chickens - she lists one solution for feather picking for when the chickens have insufficient salt in their diet. Here'sthe quote
"Since salt deficiency causes chickens to crave blood and feathers, try adding one tablespoon of salt per gallon of water in the drinker for one morning, then repeat the salt treatment 3 days later. At all other times provide plenty of fresh, unsalted water"
p. 121
There is a range of tolerance and amounts of acid vs. base pH for chickens. ETA - google says the pH of ocean water is 8.1 or 8.2 for example....compared to the 5.6 of rainwater.

Influencing factors are probably pretty enormous. From my perspective if you provide your chickens with their needs within moderation and common sense - you will be giving them good care.



There is another factor for using vinegar in the chickens waterers, and that is that it helps them with the calcium carbonate in their shells. Vinegar will assist in dissolving the calcium in oyster shells, or the crushed egg shells you feed back to your chickens.
There are even calcium supplements for humans that dissolve egg shells in vinegar.

Here are two articles from a quick internet search:
http://www.fresheggsdaily.com/2014/04/soft-shelled-or-rubber-eggs-causes-and.html
http://fresheggsdaily.com/2014/06/the-danger-of-feeding-too-much-spinach.html

That reminds me that when my first two chickens were beginning to age and lay soft shells, I was able to get them to produce better shells by adding vinegar to their water.

No two people will approach chicken keeping the same way. Everyone's environment, soil, chickens, feed bags, water and supplements are different. You will probably find what is best for you by listening to a variety of view points and then experimenting with what things produce the best results in your flock.

Good luck with those chicks!!
[/QUOTE]

Thanks! All great points, some I have seen before. I can't seem to find it now, but I saw some talk of hypercalcemia resulting from too much ACV. Now, I know nothing about a chicken's parathyroids, but that's never good.

And that brings me back to the point of how much is too much? I do not feel that its a waste, even if it doesn't add all that much to a diet including fermented feed, as long as its not too much - its fine. The stuff is inexpensive when you consider a small flock.

Well, it seems like I see something of a consensus that 1 Tbls per gallon is a good place to start for adult chickens. I'm going to go with 2 Tbls per quart (X8) and offer that in one drinker and pure water in another. Not as an experiment that I expect to see some evidence from, but because I have 2 waterers and why not at least try? Maybe I will clearly see that they prefer one over the other, even if that doesn't exactly prove anything. And I agree that it would not.

Sorry for hijacking the OPs thread, it got a little off track. If I find anything convincing one way or another elsewhere I will let my friend from Florida know.

All good points. And the topics raised here point towards a fact that I greatly appreciate as I continue learning about husbandry of my flock: There is always something new to learn. This is what keeps chicken keeping from getting boring to me.

 

[showjumper_girl2002]

2 tbsp of ACV/quart seems like a LOT. Part of this is based upon the lower water consumption that a chick versus a chicken will have. Just like some vitamins if you read the package put a much higher concentration of the powder in the chick water than in the adult chicken water.... I'm sure that Jeff Smith of cackle hatchery is on to something. Perhaps the chicks will drink more water when vinegar is added. Conventional wisdom I've heard says: "make sure the chicks are drinking water before introducing any feed, as one way to prevent pasty butt." Another excellent product is the green gel called 'gro gel'. putting even a pinch in the brooder water seems to help the chicks. Shippers sometimes make it into a goo and include it in the shipping box.


Right now I'm finishing up some 'rooster booster' brand "Vitamins & electrolytes with lacto bacillus". -- comes in an 8oz plastic container and the directions say add 1/3 tsp per gallon. Some folks are adding save-a-chick -- but that is 3.00 per envelope and 1 envelope goes in a gallon of water as I recall. If you put out 10-15 gallons of water per day you could have a very high electrolyte bill. This stuff - a little goes a long way even though the container isn't cheap.

It's interesting that no one ever makes a consideration of the beginning pH of water in the vinegar discussion.......

If your chickens get water from rain-water, it is more acidic than other water in most places in the USA.
This is from googling--->
What is the pH in rain?
The scale ranges from zero to 14, with pure water at a neutral 7.0. Most water, however, is not exactly pure. Even clean, normal rain has a pH of about 5.6. This is because it reacts with carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and forms mildly acidiccarbonic acid before it becomes rain.

Plants can be very sensitive to pH of soil and water in soil can affect pH. For examples where I live now I can grow blueberries in the ground, where I lived before they died in the ground -- due to soil -- In containers where I lived I watered them with some vinegar in the water and they did o.k.

If your chickens get tap water the pH would in theory be neutral. IF your chickens get rain water -- the pH would be slightly acidic.

Have you ever noticed how when you put out clean water -- and some spills on the dirt---That's the water that the chickens think is really yummy? that's what mine do. Now I think that there are minerals that they get from drinking the dirty water that the waterers lack.

I'm not sure that the idea of putting three bowls of water in front of the chickens would necessarily indicate what is best for the chickens. If I put three bowls of feed in front of my dog - or a cat, horse, cow--- I don't think that they would select the one best for them. I don't think chickens are any different JMO. I could easily be wrong on that. Weather and circumstances could also be a factor. In Gail Damerow's book Storey's Guide to Raising Chickens - she lists one solution for feather picking for when the chickens have insufficient salt in their diet. Here'sthe quote
"Since salt deficiency causes chickens to crave blood and feathers, try adding one tablespoon of salt per gallon of water in the drinker for one morning, then repeat the salt treatment 3 days later. At all other times provide plenty of fresh, unsalted water"
p. 121
There is a range of tolerance and amounts of acid vs. base pH for chickens. ETA - google says the pH of ocean water is 8.1 or 8.2 for example....compared to the 5.6 of rainwater.

Influencing factors are probably pretty enormous. From my perspective if you provide your chickens with their needs within moderation and common sense - you will be giving them good care.

There is another factor for using vinegar in the chickens waterers, and that is that it helps them with the calcium carbonate in their shells. Vinegar will assist in dissolving the calcium in oyster shells, or the crushed egg shells you feed back to your chickens.
There are even calcium supplements for humans that dissolve egg shells in vinegar.

Here are two articles from a quick internet search:
http://www.fresheggsdaily.com/2014/04/soft-shelled-or-rubber-eggs-causes-and.html
http://fresheggsdaily.com/2014/06/the-danger-of-feeding-too-much-spinach.html

That reminds me that when my first two chickens were beginning to age and lay soft shells, I was able to get them to produce better shells by adding vinegar to their water.

No two people will approach chicken keeping the same way. Everyone's environment, soil, chickens, feed bags, water and supplements are different. You will probably find what is best for you by listening to a variety of view points and then experimenting with what things produce the best results in your flock.

Good luck with those chicks!!

I agree, 2 tbsp/qt does sound like a lot. I've been doing 1 tbsp/gal. Now that they are outside and it is so hot I've decided to cut down to adding it once a week rather than everyday. I have read that, when it's not too hot out, it doesn't hurt to provide it daily. So far everything's going good and they seem happy and healthy as can be. Thanks everyone for all the great info!

 

[eggbert420]

For me 4tbsp per gallon once a week works great. I also do the same with my dogs and rabbits.

 

[ChicKat]

Well, it seems like I see something of a consensus that 1 Tbls per gallon is a good place to start for adult chickens. I'm going to go with 2 Tbls per quart (X8) and offer that in one drinker and pure water in another. Not as an experiment that I expect to see some evidence from, but because I have 2 waterers and why not at least try? Maybe I will clearly see that they prefer one over the other, even if that doesn't exactly prove anything. And I agree that it would not.

Sorry for hijacking the OPs thread, it got a little off track. If I find anything convincing one way or another elsewhere I will let my friend from Florida know.

It would be interesting -- you should post back. Do I understand that you would put 8 tablespoons in 1 gallon of water for your comparison?

For me 4tbsp per gallon once a week works great. I also do the same with my dogs and rabbits.

Interesting.

I used to put 2TBSP in a gallon every other day, then I went to 1 TBSP -- and then I went to about 1/2 TBSP daily for their water....

 

[Digby57]

Regarding the 8 Tbsp / gallon, that just happened to be the first recommendation I saw on this topic. It just happened to be at Cackle Hatchery, but I have never seen someone recommend quite so much since first reading that. So I called Cackle Hatchery to make sure that it wasn't actually supposed to have been written 2 Tbsp per gallon (rather than quart). I was told that if chicks are weak or lethargic to give 1/3 cup (which is 5.33 Tbsp) per quart. I was also told that 2 Tbsp per quart for the first two weeks (or longer) was absolutely fine and that it would cause no harm. I asked about giving ACV as related to heat and was told that at these concentrations of ACV it made no difference and that ACV wasn't going to harm chicks or chickens.

While the person I spoke to did seem as if she had answered this question repeatedly, she was very nice about it. Clearly, Cackle Hatchery has no concerns about advising the use of ACV at higher concentrations than what is recommended more commonly here at BYC. They seem to have a very good reputation, so there's that.

Also, 5.33 Tbsp of 64 total Tbsp in a quart is basically 8% ACV. 2 Tbsp / quart is 3% and 1 Tbsp per gallon is 0.4% ACV. Purely from the perspective of total pH, if your water was a true 7 pH and ACV is 3 pH then a solution of 8% ACV and 92% water should give you a pH of 6.78. That's just straight math and I do not certify that I know if its just so simple as that, but 6.78 is certainly on the higher end of the range of say rainwater. And of course this would be completely dependent on what your water's pH is to begin with, but I know mine is relatively hard.

On the other end of the scale, 1 Tbsp ACV in one gallon of water would reduce 7 to 6.98. Again, I know that might not be such a simple calculation and I realize that pH is not the only consideration, but Tbls, cups and gallons are not intuitive measures for me, so since I was calculating it anyways I wrote it here too.

 

[HH4705]

just curious has anyone ever given their chicks Kombucha or the scoby for probiotics? I was told that it is really good for them and I am growing new small batches just for my chicks in mason jars.

 

[Digby57]

I should also say that I was told to make sure they are drinking pure water for 4 hours or so prior to giving them ACV in the water. Which I would have done anyways.

 

[ChicKat]

Thanks Digby57 for passing along the information and doing the math.
It occurs to me that I have some possible false equivalencies and faulty logic in what I previously posted.

first I assumed that salt added to water would produce the equivalent of sea water in pH.
It wouldn't necessarily do that.

Second - the pH of seawater isn't from salt...and surprise, surprise -- salt has a neutral pH -- so it would dilute the pH of the water it was added to. (unless the water it is added to is already neutral [i.e. pH 7.0])

So salt added to alkaline water would nudge it toward neutral thus make it less alkaline and added to acid water would make it more neutral and less acid -- however slightly it would make that nudge.


Everyday you get to learn something new. Maybe seawater would be really bad for a chicken. Sorry for the faulty logic and misinformation.

 

[Digby57]

Well, I'm about to go way, way off course, but I happen to keep reef aquariums, so just a couple things about pH, alkalinity and sea water that you might find interesting. And this is just for the heck of it - it really has nothing to do with chickens. When you're keeping an aquarium with corals, you ideally want a pH of 8.3, which is easier said than done. 7.9 is ok for some easy corals, but really 8.1 is what I can reliably maintain. There are all kinds of supplements for this purpose, but a savvy reefer uses oxygen. As long as the air in your house isn't laden with CO2 (from your expiration as well as your pets) and you keep a high degree of surface agitation and run a protein skimmer, you can keep a pH of 8.0 - 8.2 without much trouble. Its really just about as simple as opening your windows as often as you can.

You'll also find that pH is significantly higher when the tank's lights are on as compared to at night. This is because coral tissues host zooxanthellae, which is a type of algae that forms a symbiosis with corals within the tissues of the coral itself, thus allowing corals to receive energy (almost directly) from sunlight. Of course this algae expires oxygen, just as any plant, and then releases CO2 at night when photosynthesis stops.

The alkaline components of synthetic sea water mixes give you the basic required components for all this to work. One uses roughly a 1/2 cup of salt mix per gallon of water to make aquarium salt water at home. That's very rough, but just to illustrate. 35 parts per thousand is what you're looking for, but that accounts for many things other than just the NaCl. In any case, a 1/2 cup per gallon is obviously more than enough to kill the heck out of any chicken, or person for that matter.

Told you it was way off course