Aggressive Toms

[callieisspooky]

I have been told by an experienced turkey breeder that to reduce aggression towards people, it's best to have more than one tom - that way they can expend aggression toward each other and have less energy for aggression toward people, though there will still be that protective aggression toward anyone who isn't a hen. This is a good thing in a sense - they are trying to protect the flock, and if a predator does come, the tom will be the first to defend and possibly save the females from a loss. He also said to avoid having only one tom at all costs, because aggression is likely to increase.

 

[livininbrazil]

I have been told by an experienced turkey breeder that to reduce aggression towards people, it's best to have more than one tom - that way they can expend aggression toward each other and have less energy for aggression toward people, though there will still be that protective aggression toward anyone who isn't a hen. This is a good thing in a sense - they are trying to protect the flock, and if a predator does come, the tom will be the first to defend and possibly save the females from a loss. He also said to avoid having only one tom at all costs, because aggression is likely to increase.

That´s interesting, I´ve had single toms and 2 toms together. The only difference I noticed was that one shows off to the gals, two show off to each other and the gals get more peace!

They only ever got a bit spatty with a particular cockbird and the peacock. Oh, and a guan.

 

[callieisspooky]

LOL. Well I'm new to turkeys, so I can't say first hand. The breeder who sold us our poults and eggs warned us against having only one Tom for the reasons above. Which is too bad, because that's exactly what we have - one Tom! So I guess I'll find out the answer sooner or later.

 

[livininbrazil]

One of my neighbours here had a tom at the same time that I had a tom, hers was quite a so-and-so, mine no trouble. I´ve had a pair, no probs, then I got an extra trio, all got along no probs, and no-one, family, visitors, had any problem with them and the turkeys were out where we all used to walk around, etc. I think Chooks made a good point, it depends on the turkey. I reckon that makes sense.

 

[chooks4life]

Quote: I'd agree with most of that. I have found that with males of most species it helps to have another male around to draw any aggression they may have. The less intelligent a male is, the more likely he is to turn any aggressive instincts onto humans, in my experience, so a stupid male is still potentially a no-problem good breeder if he has safety precautions taken such as giving him an obvious opponent upon which to focus his instincts rather than letting him seek out the closest approximation to it.

They need to live under somewhat natural circumstances in order to behave somewhat naturally. They can still act like they should when isolated from others of their kind but if instincts are not reinforced for several generations they can start to be modified to suit the environment the animal is living in, so for example a male who lives as a pet with humans, with no other males, who does not have the opportunity to be part of a turkey family, but who is bred nonetheless, can begin to produce offspring which view themselves as being the same species as humans. If you know what I mean; the closer he identifies with humans as being his flock, the more likely he is to respond to human body language in viewing it as potential mate or opponent. Instincts are redundant if never acted on, and over a few generations they can become altered for the worst. It's just the animals adapting to the circumstances we keep them under.

In most cases though I don't think toms are naturally protectors of anything but themselves. In the wild they're mainly display-and-mate purposed, not really family birds unlike roosters. Their main focus of attention is other males rather than females. I've read of whole fields of wild male turkeys just displaying and gobbling at one another, and the only way a female got a male's attention momentarily was to choose the male she liked and sit in front of him. After mating, he would go right back to display and vocalizations. Bit like stags, which is perhaps why they also call them stags... I don't know, but my toms have been much the same when there are multiples of them. Lots of conflicting info. I've always found the female turkeys to be far more aggressive and more than capable of defending themselves. Actually the same has been true of my chicken hens.

It doesn't mean all of them won't have some sort of territorial/possessive aggression over females/young/males they are attached to, but in general toms don't defend females at all. When a hawk took a young chicken from my flock, the only bird to react defensively was a female turkey, so they definitely can be opinionated about flock members. She'd raised chickens before though so that's a bit of a mixed example. But for hundreds of years humans have kept turkeys with chickens and raised one under the other too so it's possible the wild instincts regarding family are quite modified. Some of my toms were quite family oriented, others not at all. In general the roosters and toms who attack humans I don't believe are defending hens but rather disciplining what they view as subordinate flock members (humans) who step out of line.

 

[livininbrazil]

Very interesting observations, and I guess that maybe the bronze tom I had on his own may have been a particularly gentle sort? Another tom I had since 3 months, he was lovely, a self blue or lavender, I´m not too up on colours, and so easy to handle. And the blue/lavender hens, too. The only one that was a bit aggressive (to other birds, never to me) was the bronze hen, and that´s when she was brooding. Understandable.
At the moment I only have one turkey hen raising 2 chicks and it´s so funny, she does her hi-kicks and karate kicks and runs and dashes, and her two chicks just look at her....so funny. But she´s a very good mum, and for the present she´s content with her chicks. I plan to get some 4-month-old poults soon for turkey company for her.
It crossed my mind that here, people tend to keep a number of turkeys together with everything else, and rarely have problems with aggression. The birds are just left to get on with it, even though there´s a high death rate among the poults. But maybe that helps, as they´re in a more natural environment just out in fields.

 

[chooks4life]

The sort of people raising and breeding the birds accounts to a large degree what behavior the birds exhibit in my experience, if they've been maintaining that strain or family line for about five generations or so. Good breeders can work wonders. I wouldn't buy again from anyone who accepts excessive violence in their birds as it's hard to breed out once it's established, and will recur for generations even once you're breeding the nicer ones out of the lot.

Getting company for a turkey hen has not often worked for me. They can be such bullies. They "weep" when they don't have company, but want to kill or escape their company when they get it. They can find their company stressful even when they are the bully, not the victim. Unfortunately the more social victims I have brought in for company for the less social hens have all been far too inbred and defective to even consider breeding from, so I've kept the antisocials instead. But they're written off, so to speak, I intend to get new stock in ASAP.

I believe some strains of turkeys maintain the old wild instinct regarding solitary life. Others co-brood etc and have strong flocking instinct. It's an issue you can't solve when your hen contains a bit of both sorts of mentality!

I've got a few hens who want company --- but hate company. Years have passed and I have been unable to resolve this issue except by isolating that hen, and only keeping the turkeys she produces, not buying in new ones. Obviously she's limiting my bloodlines with her proclivities so I don't intend to keep her bloodline too much longer; at the moment I'm just using her for production of meat birds, not breeders, because she has become too much trouble. Actually, she's always been too much trouble. But healthy birds aren't too common around my area, so she's been too hard to replace.

The best company for such a turkey hen is her own babies. Getting younger poults that aren't her own may trigger some violence as females can be very territorial about another female's offspring getting about the area she views as her own personal breeding territory. Even chicken hens can display this sort of alpha-female territoriality. I would always know when some dominant hens were going to brood because they would go around the flock making sure every single hen knew who was boss and what areas they were not allowed to tread any longer.

I've had chickens and turkeys and geese etc all together without stress, but I did cull troublemakers as a rule. I had one leghorn cockerel who took to assaulting my turkeys whenever they laid down or turned their backs and singlehandedly he turned my dozy, friendly turkeys, who never harmed a chicken, into a pack of bloodthirsty killers. Over time, suffering his attacks every day, multiple times a day, they started to get more and more aggressive in defense of themselves. They would at first hound him, then later all other roosters, mercilessly all day every day. I culled the cockerel, who was also human-aggressive and sexually attracted to humans, and they settled down somewhat after that, but never again were as sociable with the chickens. I wouldn't tolerate turkeys who kill, nor chickens. It appears vitally necessary, for a peaceful mixed flock, to cull out all troublemakers as soon as you see them making trouble. Things tend to escalate, not take care of themselves, more often than not.

 

[chooks4life]

It crossed my mind that here, people tend to keep a number of turkeys together with everything else, and rarely have problems with aggression. The birds are just left to get on with it, even though there´s a high death rate among the poults. But maybe that helps, as they´re in a more natural environment just out in fields.

I would view the killings of poults as a symptom of an issue. Under a more natural circumstance, excess violence is something always avoided. Only when two very well matched individuals are unable to 'argue' hierarchy dispute into a solution does a serious fight occur. Even then killing is more abnormal than normal under a wild situation.

Many people think in the wild it's all kill or be killed, since that's the popular idea we've been taught since childhood, but that's actually based on half truths and ignorance; you would have seen in many documentaries etc that there's a huge amount of behavioral body language and form, modifications, "safety mechanisms" etc that enables mock threats and display of dominance or submission without ever escalating to a violent interaction. Roosters are a good example of that, being so showy, just as with toms; their very showiness is generally a good indication with any species that most of their 'battles' will be ritual and stylized posturing, not resorting to actual physical violence.

Fights to the death are rare and bullying to the death is rarer. It makes no sense under natural circumstances for adult males and females, who have an adequate food supply, to waste precious time and energy, and risk life and limb, to destroy one another or young birds which are no threat to them.

I believe these are all extremes of behavior humans have bred into them under intensive farming, since the majority of all these examples occur only under our husbandry.

Lack of full spectrum nutrition combined with overcrowding and disintegration of the natural family unit contributes to this, as even the most antisocial species will congregate in vast numbers, without violence, when food supplies are rich enough. Giving kelp or a higher nutritional supplement than just the cheapest one you can buy is one way to trigger this complacency. Forcing them to overpopulate an area without complete nutrition triggers the depopulation instinct. Drought and a high burden of disease also triggers a survival instinct that propels some to leave the flock or home area, or drive out or kill weaker individuals. But these are circumstances of high duress, not representative of normal behavior in well catered for animals.

This is off topic but is why I believe we must select against aggressive non-peaceful males and females; they are usually only so aggressive and violent purely because they are lower grade genetically than the more peaceful animals.

Removing neurotic or hyperaggressive animals is necessary because for the animals, male and female, that are unable to gain alpha status though rights based on intelligence and strong genes, excessive violence is another method of attaining social dominance and therefore passing on their genes. They are not the best stock and cause losses of production, life, time and finances due to the stress and damage they cause. Such lower grade individuals can continue to "succeed at the breeding lottery" by breaking social rules and being extremely violent.

This has been shown in studies on cattle and deer, antelopes, etc. As I've mentioned before, the Australian cattle industry has found and proven positive correlation between a male's levels of aggression and his lower fertility. More fertile and healthier males are almost always calmer and more peaceful. (Exceptions would have to be made in breeds humans have developed for fighting, obviously).

In many studies of wild animals as well as some on domestics, lower grade males are more aggressive and do a lot more fighting but sire a lot less offspring, and their offspring are sired on lower grade females, and in turn these offspring will almost certainly never attain alpha status. They are born lower grade. The alpha hinds produce the future alpha stags, and they seek out a certain grade of stag to breed with and won't accept a lower grade one no matter how hard he tries to isolate her from other males. His extreme aggression is partly a method of trying to attain higher grade offspring, by trying to isolate a female above his grade. The best mares produce the best stallions, and the best stallions in turn produce the best mares, and the cycle repeats. The best stallions do not produce the best stallions, and the best mares do not produce the best mares. This is pretty well known and is another example of the complicated breeding systems in existence.

Due to the preference of the public for watching such primal battles as one sees between lower grade males, documentary makers focus on finding such footage as that's the moneymaking shots, and most people think all males are like that in the wild, it's "the male that fights the most that is the best and gets the most offspring". The truth of animal breeding is far more complicated than that. Occasionally you will see two top males fighting but most fighting you see is between lower grade males.

You can see in some documentaries and studies that certain females always refuse whatever male is considered by humans to be the "harem-master". Theoretically this should not happen at all. Yet it does. These are the higher grade females in general, playing at genetic superiority and exclusivity by being very picky about their mates. In general the females are chiefly in control of genetic strength or weakness in their offspring because they pick the best males they can and have internal mechanisms which destroy or eject sperm from males who are not a good match, etc. (Not commonly known although it's been documented for decades now... Some science news sites have info on this if you want to research it. Basically every species has sperm selection and destruction mechanisms in the females, even humans). Males are usually less picky about their mates than females, which makes sense since reproduction for a male is a very short isolated incident that doesn't directly threaten his life or take anything significant from him. So low grade females are better able to upgrade their family line than low grade males.

A low grade female stands a better chance of breeding with a high grade male than a low grade male does of breeding with a high grade female, and a female's intelligence and instinct levels more directly impact on her offspring than the father's as her diet and behavior directly influences her offspring's survival and health, and so females have a better chance of improving their genetic output than males do. Hence their frequent reticence about mating with just any male. A sub par male though can really only resort to excessive violence as a breeding strategy, although I must say I have seen some males work the same trick (securing an 'up-market mate') with extremely good "husbandry" of their chosen mate. A lower grade male can sometimes woo a higher grade female in which case one might view it as intelligence triumphing over weaker genetics and improving the future stock.

Anyway, this is such an unpopular version of reality that we still publish the preferred concepts of animal breeding and social structure, (alpha male takes all and it's all kill or be killed) but I've studied animals all my life and the truth of their behavior and breeding habits are not as simplified as the mainstream beliefs.

It's somewhat exasperating to me that so many believe only a good male is violent and only a weak male is peaceful, as this is untrue, and these beliefs continue to shape what genetics and common behaviors predominate in our flocks. I would not tolerate excessive violence as this is not actually natural. Fighting is natural but only within reason. If it descends into killing there is a deeper reason that must be sorted out. In my experience and opinion, anyway, and I understand a lot of folks believe the exact opposite. Time will tell.

Ok, I've gone way off topic, as usual haha, but anyway this is part of the reason I keep saying excess violence is NOT natural and should be culled out.

Best wishes.

 

[livininbrazil]

you´re always an interesting read, chooks4. And funny too. So I think I must have been blessed with some very placid turkeys!
When I got the 3 poults before, the hen I had at the time took no notice of them at all. But my birds are nice and calm out there, no clashes or anything, so I´ll think again about getting poults, I don´t want to upset the cart.
The turkey hen I have at the moment was in a little cage in a shop. I felt sorry for her, so she came home with me. She started laying, but as I didn´t know whether she´d been with a cock before or not, I let her sit on her eggs, but also put 2 chicken eggs under her justin case. Only the chicks hatched and she´s really happy looking after them. Trouble is, they´re about 3 months old now, so won´t want to be pampered much longer. Maybe I´ll hunt about for some nice placid turkeys and get some eggs for her to sit on. But then I´d have to make a special place for her to rear the poults so they don´t get rained on, or touch the ground, get cold.....Maybe I´ll just let her rear some chicks again!

 

[chooks4life]

I kept putting chicks under one of my turkey hens, letting her incubate them, because she was a terrible mother to the more delicate poults, but over a few clutches she became increasingly aware that they were not poults, and by the fourth or fifth clutch she abandoned them as soon as she was sure the whole clutch contained not one poult. She's hated me ever since, haha. Just because they don't understand the first time doesn't mean they won't 'twig' sooner or later... But maybe yours won't.

Some strains of turkeys are exceptionally nice, and as long as they are not forced into stressful situations like being harassed by a rooster, chances are they will remain nice and breed nice turkeys. Nasty ones are too much trouble to work on.

Best wishes.