Airsac and humidity

[BooBoo45]

Well this shows how much of a newbie I am and I feel a bit daft now. I can now see that the air sacs are very much in the blunt end.

What I was panicking over yesterday I now believe to be the eggs with the dead ducklings inside. I thought the air sac was in the pointy part of the egg as that is clear - at least half way up, the light shines through it and there are no veins showing there at all. There was a duckling developing in the top part but I think it must have died, those two eggs look very different to the three that I believe to be alive.

Today is day 21. I have a Brinsea octagon 20 with a motorised cradle.

Sue

 

[charlindabob]

Well this shows how much of a newbie I am and I feel a bit daft now. I can now see that the air sacs are very much in the blunt end.

What I was panicking over yesterday I now believe to be the eggs with the dead ducklings inside. I thought the air sac was in the pointy part of the egg as that is clear - at least half way up, the light shines through it and there are no veins showing there at all. There was a duckling developing in the top part but I think it must have died, those two eggs look very different to the three that I believe to be alive.

Today is day 21. I have a Brinsea octagon 20 with a motorised cradle.

Sue

Don't give up yet Sue! You do know now that the air sac should be in the BLUNT end of the egg. I wasn't going to scare you any further by telling you earlier if the air sac was in the pointed end, and you are a week away from hatch, there's not much you can do to change it. And, IMO, your humidity has been very high, but I wouldn't attempt to change it now this close to hatch. Clear liquid in the pointed end does not necessarily mean a dead duckling. When you candle just before you discontinue turning the eggs, mark where the air sac dips into the egg the furthest, mark that side and that should be the top.

Bob

 

[BooBoo45]

Thank you Bob, I have to say I have learnt a lot doing this so far and if so much wasn't riding on it I'd probably find it interesting rather than stressful. So I should keep the humidity the same now for the remaining week? What you are saying about too high a humidity makes a lot of sense and it was something I thought of yesterday - too late. I think if I did this again (seriously doubt it right now) I would try it with just water in the channels and no wash cloth.

I've tried to take some photos but they aren't really focussed. I worry too much about them being out of the incubator so I'm not really taking very long looking.

The first two photos are the ones I think have died, actually just looking at photos I think it is very obvious they have now: The camera picks out more detail than I see looking so quickly.






The remaining 3 eggs look like this bottom one, although it isn't clear there are good veins present - one of which you can see at the bottom by the light. They do have good air sacs at the top too but this is an awful photo. Each egg has a different amount of clear white at the bottom (which I originally mistook for the air sac

) but it is only a very slight difference and not a lot on any of them. In most the egg appears to be full of baby duck to me but this is the woman that couldn't find that illusive air sac yesterday!.




Thank you for taking the time to reply to me, I really do appreciate it.

My son has now found some Alyesbury ducklings that are due to hatch next week too and the breeder (A big concern) has said I can have 3. That eases this for me as I won't be duckless for much longer, but I would so like these three eggs to hatch. I'd be over joyed at just one! I have put so much time into them - too much probably, I've over thought it all. I got up three times last night to just check the temperature reading and humidity reading.

 

[charlindabob]

If you decide to incubate again we can delve into this deeper, but regarding humidity.......Forget everything you learned about humidity. When you keep the humidity too high during incubation, the embryo is too big at hatch time. Sound great that the embryo is big, huh? No, that is bad. When the humidity is high during incubation, the embryo doesn't lose enough weight inside the shell and has a hard time, if not impossible to pip the egg (make the first hole). Now you have to realize that the pip is actually the SECOND pip as the duckling must pip into the air sac FIRST. It's not cut in stone and there are hatchlings that did not pip the air sac and just pipped the eggs shell elsewhere first, but it isn't the way it should be. Now, the duckling/chick HAS TO ROTATE some within the shell to cut its way out using the egg tooth. What happens when the duckling is too big and is actually wedged inside the shell and CANNOT move? Yep, you have a full term fully formed dead duckling. How do you tell if the humidity is right? You weigh the egg every week. Each week, the eggs should lose 2.8% of initial weight or 11.2% during the incubation period for most ducks and 14% for Muscovy ducks which take around 35 days to hatch.

About now you need to up the humidity a good bit and lower the temperature ONE degree. This softens the egg membrane and makes it easier to hatch.

You need to have ALL the incubator air vents OPEN a couple of days BEFORE hatch day. Eggs are porous and the hatching needs AIR, even before it hatches.

There are many other factors that can cause losses, but we can get into that later.

Right now my fingers are crossed that your hatch goes well.

Bob

 

[BooBoo45]

Oh dear, that doesn't sound brilliant, does it? I can't go back now although I really wish I had found this place sooner. So many times I've wished I never started but I know there is still a chance of at least one hatching, So I'll plough on taking your advice into account. I know nothing is certain even if you get things spot on and also that what can appear to be a no hoper can surprise everyone, so I'm not getting upset or being negative. I really appreciate you helping me out and it is easier to deal with having solid facts and information. If at the end it fails you'll have helped me understand what went wrong and why. I started the thread because I was totally lost and not understanding what I was seeing, now it is like a puzzle slotting into place and over the last couple of days I've learned a lot.

I have gone totally by reading the humidity meter, I've not weighed at all. This is a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing and not understanding what I've been seeing it is now too late to change the results.

Can you tell me what you mean by upping the humidity a good bit. It's been on 45 - 50 according to the reading. I'm due to lock down on Sunday, do I keep the incubator rocking until then and what should the humidity raise to at that point? I've read all sorts, the manual just says 65+ but that also told me to keep humidity between 45 - 55 which I'm now seeing isn't correct.

What you are telling me does make perfect sense, Bob, and might explain why I only ever see movement in the one egg too. Poor ducklings don't have room to move. I'm worried about hurting them by going to 36 degrees and adding more humidity (it's now just under 60) yet from what you say the damage is already done.

 

[charlindabob]

Oh dear, that doesn't sound brilliant, does it? I can't go back now although I really wish I had found this place sooner. So many times I've wished I never started but I know there is still a chance of at least one hatching, So I'll plough on taking your advice into account. I know nothing is certain even if you get things spot on and also that what can appear to be a no hoper can surprise everyone, so I'm not getting upset or being negative. I really appreciate you helping me out and it is easier to deal with having solid facts and information. If at the end it fails you'll have helped me understand what went wrong and why. I started the thread because I was totally lost and not understanding what I was seeing, now it is like a puzzle slotting into place and over the last couple of days I've learned a lot.

I have gone totally by reading the humidity meter, I've not weighed at all. This is a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing and not understanding what I've been seeing it is now too late to change the results.

Can you tell me what you mean by upping the humidity a good bit. It's been on 45 - 50 according to the reading. I'm due to lock down on Sunday, do I keep the incubator rocking until then and what should the humidity raise to at that point? I've read all sorts, the manual just says 65+ but that also told me to keep humidity between 45 - 55 which I'm now seeing isn't correct.

What you are telling me does make perfect sense, Bob, and might explain why I only ever see movement in the one egg too. Poor ducklings don't have room to move. I'm worried about hurting them by going to 36 degrees and adding more humidity (it's now just under 60) yet from what you say the damage is already done.

Sue, upping the humidity usually would mean going from no or very little water in your incubator to as much water as your incubator will allow. About all incubators say add water and keep the humidity high during incubation. This is about the only time I know of that you should put your incubator manual in a drawer and close it and leave it in there! It may be fine for chickens, but for ducks it just isn't too helpful. One would think duck incubation would have a higher moisture (humidity) content than chickens since chickens don't swim, but it just doesn't work out that way IMO. Your humidity should be fine since you have done all you can to up the humidity during incubation. You've got it about as high as you can.

My incubator, for example, has goose AND duck eggs in it and ZERO water. Absolutely no water added. Sue, I'm certainly no expert, but what I tell you I only learned a year ago in here from yinepu and others.

 

[shannondee12]

My very first duckling hatch was with 6 shipped eggs. I didn't know anything about hatching ducks or to let the eggs settle for 24 hours to let the air cells re-attach. I had the old stand by stryofoam bator that was still air, no fan. I didn't monitor humidity and even let the water run dry in the bottom by accident. The power went out a few times dropping the temps in the bator to under 70. I did everything wrong that I could possible do wrong besides drop the eggs on the floor. I still had 2 out of six hatch. The moral of the story, don't over think it. There is no way in nature for the momma duck to keep an exact humidity like we sometimes stress over. There could have been many factors in the eggs not progressing besides yourself. The few that you have going are going to be that much stronger when they hatch. Trust me, it's easier to get over a failed to progress egg than it is to have a weak and sickly duck to die in your hands.

 

[charlindabob]

My very first duckling hatch was with 6 shipped eggs. I didn't know anything about hatching ducks or to let the eggs settle for 24 hours to let the air cells re-attach. I had the old stand by stryofoam bator that was still air, no fan. I didn't monitor humidity and even let the water run dry in the bottom by accident. The power went out a few times dropping the temps in the bator to under 70. I did everything wrong that I could possible do wrong besides drop the eggs on the floor. I still had 2 out of six hatch. The moral of the story, don't over think it. There is no way in nature for the momma duck to keep an exact humidity like we sometimes stress over. There could have been many factors in the eggs not progressing besides yourself. The few that you have going are going to be that much stronger when they hatch. Trust me, it's easier to get over a failed to progress egg than it is to have a weak and sickly duck to die in your hands.

You are so right shannondee12. Sometimes they hatch no matter how bad we mimic Mother Nature. When we artificially incubate eggs, we assume the responsibility of Mother Nature and we can only try to do as well. If we deviate a bit we may be forgiven and still have a good hatch, but it's best to at least try to be perfect, which we aren't.

2 out of six is better than 0 out of 6, but if everything had been "perfect", do you think your hatch might have been higher? Looking back it's hard to say, but we must strive for excellence......

I still haven't figured out why some eggs are harder to hatch than others.

 

[BooBoo45]

My very first duckling hatch was with 6 shipped eggs. I didn't know anything about hatching ducks or to let the eggs settle for 24 hours to let the air cells re-attach. I had the old stand by stryofoam bator that was still air, no fan. I didn't monitor humidity and even let the water run dry in the bottom by accident. The power went out a few times dropping the temps in the bator to under 70. I did everything wrong that I could possible do wrong besides drop the eggs on the floor. I still had 2 out of six hatch. The moral of the story, don't over think it. There is no way in nature for the momma duck to keep an exact humidity like we sometimes stress over. There could have been many factors in the eggs not progressing besides yourself. The few that you have going are going to be that much stronger when they hatch. Trust me, it's easier to get over a failed to progress egg than it is to have a weak and sickly duck to die in your hands.

I have over thought this, you are quite right. I tried too hard from the sounds of it. I'm just upset at the idea that this duckling has grown probably too big and now won't get out when I so carefully did what the manual said. Of course I don't know that for sure, I just want to do what is best right now. I'm only a few days from lockdown and I really need a chill pill. Getting up 3 times in the night to check the temp is over kill. I think if I'd still got my ducks I would have gone into this more laid back but it was what it was.

Sue, upping the humidity usually would mean going from no or very little water in your incubator to as much water as your incubator will allow. About all incubators say add water and keep the humidity high during incubation. This is about the only time I know of that you should put your incubator manual in a drawer and close it and leave it in there! It may be fine for chickens, but for ducks it just isn't too helpful. One would think duck incubation would have a higher moisture (humidity) content than chickens since chickens don't swim, but it just doesn't work out that way IMO. Your humidity should be fine since you have done all you can to up the humidity during incubation. You've got it about as high as you can.

My incubator, for example, has goose AND duck eggs in it and ZERO water. Absolutely no water added. Sue, I'm certainly no expert, but what I tell you I only learned a year ago in here from yinepu and others.

Compared to me you are very much the expert, Bob. It's annoying as I followed the instructions to the Tee and I am now finding out all I've achieved is a near certain death for the ducklings that have grown. Looking around everyone recommends a much lower humidity like you have suggested, and there I was worrying it wasn't high enough. I could probably get the humidity even higher yet, but I'm not due to lock down to Sunday so I just upped it to 60 and lowered the temp hoping that this will make the eggs easier to break through, it gives it time to work. I know that really all I can do now is carry on and follow through, hoping that this will work out for one duckling at least. I suppose the humidity isn't going to make much difference to their growing now, it's too late. Should I up the humidity more on lock down if I can?

Sorry Bob, I know it must feel like I am throwing questions at you but your advice is at least giving some hope to those ducklings right now. It has given them a chance of hatching which they probably wouldn't have had before. I shouldn't be thinking none of the three will break out, I know for sure one is alive as I've watched it moving.. I need to get rid of being negative and think 'lucky'

I am so grateful for you sharing your experience with me, if this does fail I need to come out of it thinking I've learned something positive from it and thanks to your support I know so much more now. Especially with regards of how to lie the egg in the incubator with the x upwards. (they wouldn't have even got the x put on them!).

 

[Zombified]

I was reading another incubation thread, and someone said that the best hatches they ever had, were the ones they didn't worry about.

I'm a strong believer in thought. I think many times, if you think about something, if you put energy into a certain thought, whatever you're thinking about, has a strong chance of happening. If you don't put energy into your worries (meaning, if you don't stress out and worry about your last three dying) then I think there's a strong chance of your remaining three making it.

That doesn't mean that just because you stress out and pull your hair out that they're going to die, of course. As I said, I think thought plays a huge role, and I think at this moment, you're probably also putting a lot of hope into at least that one little duckling who's wriggling around.

I've never hatched a duckling, so I don't really have technical advice. Just: Breathe, smile, and remember that no matter what happens, you did your best with what information you had. Nobody can - or should - fault you for that.