Ameraucana thread for posting pictures and discussing our birds

[Arctic Chick]

Beautiful birds Chicken Stalker!! Great job! Just love them!

 

[Arctic Chick]

Criminie, can't delete posts.............. lol
Well since I have the space now, hope everyone and their Ameraucanas are having a wonderful day out there~ btw what is everyone's favorite Ameraucana and do you have pics of your special one of the bunch? I always have more than one, well honestly, about all of them!

 

[Tailfeathers]

I have been reading this thread for several years....you would not believe how many times I have heard this exact same reasoning.

I guess we should defer to the Ameraucana Breeders club and see what they say about this subject. They are the ones that developed the breed, got it accepted into the SOP and continue to work and improve these birds. If we all just decide for ourselves then it is just anarchy...anarchy I tell you!! lol joke.

Ameraucanas are different. The breed is too young. We must be vigilant.

Any birds I breed that do not conform to the standard are EE in my book. Doesn't seem fair but thats the way it is. I suppose if one wants to change this, they could join the Ameraucana breeders club..run for office and campaign for changes or something.

I also am raising marans. Did you know that a marans...no matter how perfect it is, if it does not lay at least a #4 egg color then it is NOT a marans? It does not matter it's pedigree or how well it fits the SOP. Thank god ameraucana's don't have to lay an exact color intensity or there are a LOT more birds out there that would not make the cut. (Of course there is a preferred color for eggs)

So there are different rules for different breeds and varieties.

I've got like 5 or 6 pages left to catch up but felt I needed to address a couple of things in the above.

First, Christie is absolutely correct when she states that folks should defer to the ABC as to what constitutes an "Ameraucana" vice an "Easter Egger". I would only add that this is for clarification over the SOP of course. Everyone can have an opinion but that don't make it the truth or fact. For the truth or fact one must go to an authoritative source and wrt to Ameraucanas, that would be the ABC.

Second, I would not agree that any bird that does not conform to the SOP is an EE. Anyone that has been breeding Ameraucans (or probably any breed for that matter) knows that things can unexplainably pop up that are way outside the norm. Case in point, I had a hen for at least two years that had an over-sized peacomb, was somewhat undersized in body, had some plumage akin to a female BW but also had some coloration akin to a BW male or maybe even a little W male. In the two years I had her, she never laid an egg. Now I line breed and have maintained a closed flock since I got my original chicks from Paul Smith. I know for a fact she was pure WBS Ameraucana and if I hadn't sold her to someone for the skillet, I could tell you to this day who its parents were. I'm thinking it may have been a hermaphrodite and wished I'd asked the guy to let me know after he butchered it if it had undeveloped testes or something.

Third, the statement about Marans does not make sense to me. I don't breed Marans so am not familiar with the SOP. I've got the new SOP but, of course, the Marans didn't make it into the book yet. Having said that, I know of no breed in the SOP where the color of egg is considered when judging the bird. That includes Ameraucanas. The fact that Ameraucanas are a blue-egg laying breed is mentioned in the "General Description/Characteristics" section but nowhere will you see it listed under the specific traits that the bird is judged on. (For more on this one can scroll back several pages and see my comments regarding my Ameraucanas that lay white eggs) Moreover, anyone who breeds birds that are known for laying a particularly colored egg knows that the color can change due to a variety of reasons some of which still remain a mystery to me. So, it is very likely that a Marans could lay an extremely dark egg one day and the next day an egg that is less than a "#4" whatever that is.

When I sell my culls, I tell folks they are getting true Ameraucanas and if they are interested in breeding and showing, I run down the faults of whatever bird they're getting and why. Some of my culls have been BV and maybe even Reserve AOSB if I remember right. Obviously those would not be considered an EE but neither, for example, would a say "clean-faced" full blood sister or daughter. But it's an entirely different story when someone makes an unacceptable cross such as a BBS to a WBS bird. The genetics for the two varieties are not compatible and they will not breed true. They will only mess up both varieties and therefore, without being dogmatic, I would say that is an EE. Though I'm hardly the authority to state with certainty.

As for the so-called "Project Birds", I'd have to say that in most cases they are Easter Eggers until such time as there is enough agreed upon conformity that the appropriate steps can be taken to get them approved by and accepted into both the ABC and the APA. Case in point, I'm working with some "project birds" now with my Barnevelders. I'm developing a Rose-Combed Barnie and I've got some pretty good looking birds. I'm quite hopeful that the progeny from this year's matings will get me to where I want to be. If one were to ask me if my birds are a Barnevelder, however, I would have to say, "No." At least not yet. There is no such thing as a RC Barnie. I don't care how good it looks. Maybe in the future, if enough people like it and it catches enough fancy, there will be but as of now, nope. It's just not a Barnie.

Hey Jean, are you lurking around? Maybe you could pop in and share some light on this. What would the "Old Timers" - the Originators - call a, say BBS & WBS cross? And why if you could.

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

Yes, yes, and YES.

WHY call a non-standard colored pure Ameraucana from two Ameraucana parents an EE??! There already IS a strong definition of what an EE is [that the public somehow needs to learn better]. It is a cross of 2 breeds, one being an Ameraucana or Araucana, and the other any other bird. An EE should lay a colored egg actually too, I believe, so if it lays a brown egg it shouldn't even have this designation [EE]. Imperfect AM's are not now a MIX of two breeds just because they are not show-worthy.

An imperfect Ameraucana [poor beards/muffs, color, etc etc] is a non-breeder, pet quality animal. Or the fancy could call is a temporary new designation like posted above. PCA or something.

The point above about how are any of the breeders going to all of a sudden say that their splash "EE's" are now pure Ameraucanas is spot-on. This is only asking for more trouble for this breed.

If I bred my pure bred Labrador retriever to another pure bred labs, and they had puppies with white toes, the puppies would not somehow become another BREED. They would be poor labs with disqualifying faults.

Ok, I'm back. Just a few more corrections:

1) WHY call a non-standard colored pure Ameraucana from two Ameraucana parents an EE??! Because of the genetics of each variety and the ability of a variety to breed true. The ABC went to GREAT effort to ensure that Ameraucanas were distinct from EE's and one of the criteria for this was to ensure that each variety breed true. Just for further edification on this, I have emailed one of the "Old Timers" at ABC who was active in getting the breed established. I specifically asked him what he would call a BBS crossed to a WBS in the case were both birds were full-blooded, pure Ameraucanas.

2) An EE should lay a colored egg actually too, I believe, so if it lays a brown egg it shouldn't even have this designation [EE]. Not true. I make my own EE's. If one understands how the color comes to be, one understands that a brown egg is just as likely as a green egg. Case in point, I had two identical looking pullets from a BW over Welsummer cross. They were full-blooded sisters from the same parents and you could not tell the difference between the two. One laid a dark olive green egg and the other a brown egg with just a hit of pinkish tint to it due to the way the final calcification occurred.

3) A Splash or SW is an Ameraucana. Genetically it is a bird that carries two copies of the Andalusian Blue gene. A Blue or BW carries one. Therefore it is a genetically approved authentic variety just as Black or Blue or Wheaten and BW. Splashes or SW's should not be called EE's. Breed a SW to a SW and you will get 100% SW every single time.

4) I'll wait to I hear from my friend from the ABC to see what he says about the BBS x WBS but the analogy of a lab x lab resulting in white toes does not fit to the BBS x WBS because whereas you are correct that the white toes would be a DQ for black labs (taking your word for it) that is not the same with the BBS x WBS because they are not genetically compatible to begin with.

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

Perhaps the ABC should have serious breeders document their birds parentage for X number of generations and be given the classification of ABC Ameraucanas. Pure Bred. Done and clear.

This is an excellent idea but probably outside the scope of many, if not most, breeders. Plus it also doesn't take into account certain breeding practices such as flock breeding. I happen to line-breed and maintain a closed flock so I do keep such records but it is only to enable me to go back and trackdown problems that may unexpectedly pop up or to identify the culprits of certain faults or DQ's that I'm trying to eliminate or improve upon.

God Bless,

 

[NYREDS]

As to the Marans issue I have to ask, as a judge how long do I have to stand next to a cage waiting for a female Marans to lay an egg so I can check the egg colour?

 

[Tailfeathers]

I think I have figured out where some of my confusion came from. I read somewhere that an EE was a mixed breed, not purebred. After reading Christie's post I went to the Ameraucana sight and read their definition. I've quoted it below as it solved A LOT of my confusion!!!

"The Ameraucana Breeders Club defines an Easter Egg chicken or Easter Egger as any chicken that possesses the blue egg gene, but doesn’t fully meet any breed descriptions as defined in the APA and/or ABA standards. Further, even if a bird meets an Ameraucana standard breed description, but doesn’t meet a variety description or breed true at least 50% of the time it is considered an Easter Egg chicken."

Where I was getting hung up was on my interpretation that EE = Mongrel. That's NOT what it says!!! EE is any chicken that does not conform to the standard. So... a purebred Ameraucana that does not conform to the standard IS an EE. That is why my hypothetical chicken that inherited two copies of a recessive gene (giving it willow legs) even though it came from Ameraucana parents is an EE.

My mistake was I was attemping to use terms I'd learned elsewhere... Show or breeder quality, pet (non-breeder) quality, and mixed breed. Now I understand that "Ameraucana" does not mean a purebred, but rather "show or breeder quality," and EE includes BOTH what I would call pet quality AND mixed breeds (so long as it has the blue egg gene) all lumped under one designation.

I hope this helps some of the others that shared my confusion!

I think you are misinterpreting/misunderstanding what is meant by "as defined in the APA and/or ABA standards" and/or "even if a bird meets an Ameraucana standard breed description, but doesn’t meet a variety description or breed true at least 50% of the time it is considered an Easter Egg chicken". To say "a purebred Ameraucana that does not conform to the standard IS an EE" is incorrect because that would include a Splash or SW. Both of those are not in the APA or ABA but they DO breed true 100% of the time. However, this would define a BBS x WBS as I put forth earlier as an EE.

In reality, there is no such things as a "purebred" chicken. Kenny Troiano has written extensively on this in his book and in the PP. And it is also equally incorrect to say than an "Ameraucana" means it is "show or breeder quality". It would be completely incorrect and inaccurate to use the above definition to say that an Ameraucana that is not "Show Quality", or rather is "Pet Quality", is an EE. The terms SQ or PQ are completely subjective. What is SQ for me may not be for a far superior breeder to myself and vice versa.

And btw, if I were to guess I would say that the vast majority of EE's are the result of breeding EE's together and in the lesser cases breeding an Ameraucana to another breed. An Araucana bred to another breed would also be an EE. So in the majority of cases, while I have nothing to substantiate this or could come close to proving it, I feel pretty confident in saying that the vast majority of EE's are mixed breeds.

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

Sorry friend, there is no such thing as, partridge, splash, lavender or buff Ameraucanas! That would be classified as an EE Easter Egg chicken in game. I can't wait to play it!!!

What? No such thing as a Splash or Buff Ameraucana? Where did you hear such a thing? It's true there is no Partridge Ameraucanas. There is so much that goes into the "Lavender" that I can't even go into it but, while technically that is true, I would guess that in 5 years there will be. Having said that, there most certain is a Splash and Buff Ameraucana. Check out the ABC website.

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

As to the Marans issue I have to ask, as a judge how long do I have to stand next to a cage waiting for a female Marans to lay an egg so I can check the egg colour?

Great post! That's exactly what I was thinking!

I forgot about you NYREDS and I couldn't remember if Walt was on this thread or not. Thanks for the opportunity to have a good laugh! I can always use them.

God Bless,

 

[Reyvaughn]

Quote:
No, but if your hen happens to lay a 2 on the egg scale while the judge is in front of the cage, you are SOL.