Ameraucana thread for posting pictures and discussing our birds

[FowlStuff]

More power to Cackle for infusing their breeding with top quality birds. They now have to stop calling their EEs ameraucana/araucana. The extra roos will also make it into the EE and OE pens bumping the quality of those birds. They are asking a premium and only offering S/R which will eliminate the people only wanting $4 pullets. The customers that do buy them are going to be better informed which is exactly what the breed needs. People exhibit all the breeds hatcheries raise now. Home grown, hatchery as well as breeders. What's the difference now that hatchery ameraucana have been added to the list? People rarely start with top of the line show animals. They start with what they have and if they enjoy it and want to become more competitive, the quality will go up.

Yes, their present price per chick is higher than mine. The original intent, when they bought the Ameraucana chicks from me, was to cross with their Easter Eggers just to get bluer Easter Egger eggs. Evidently they decided to breed and sell Ameraucanas.
And it is funny how we know top breeders have better Rocks, Orpingtons and Marans than commercial hatcheries, but at least one person has a problem with one hatchery now having Ameraucanas that could rate the same. How many complained that Meyer's offered blue Ameraucanas?
Keep in mind that no matter what I say here it will be spun by one. Don't get sucked in.

 

[scflock]

Yes, their present price per chick is higher than mine. The original intent, when they bought the Ameraucana chicks from me, was to cross with their Easter Eggers just to get bluer Easter Egger eggs. Evidently they decided to breed and sell Ameraucanas.
And it is funny how we know top breeders have better Rocks, Orpingtons and Marans than commercial hatcheries, but at least one person has a problem with one hatchery now having Ameraucanas that could rate the same. How many complained that Meyer's offered blue Ameraucanas?
Keep in mind that no matter what I say here it will be spun by one. Don't get sucked in.

John, I know what you're referring to, and that didn't have anything to do with BYC, and happened way before I got AMs, so I don't have a dog in that hunt. I enjoy a good debate, not an argument, and the debates help me learn when the participants know so much more than me.
I know that hatcheries sell the same birds as breeders breed for show, it just surprised me that as the developer of many of these birds you were promoting the hatcheries acquisition of them. Did they get them from you under the guise of improving their EEs? If so, I would think you would be livid that they turned around and started selling your own birds for more than you sell them for. I know that they could pick up birds from any breeder that would sell, any time they wanted to. It just surprised me that you refer to so many people as "fanciers" and "exhibitors", but seemed happy about the mass production of AMs. This is a serious question, would you have more respect for someone that bought a hatchery bird and worked with them than you would someone who bought better stock from a breeder and continued to work with the already improved birds?
I guess what worries me about all of this is my experience with BCM. Right now, if you search "Ameraucana", most of your returns will either be fairly SOP AMs or Easter Eggers. At least if someone has done a minimum of research, the difference is obvious with just a glance. The BCM are much more difficult. They have gotten so popular and so thinned out, by hatcheries or unscrupulous breeders, that bad stock isn't readily visible to a novice. I can pick out an orange EE sitting beside a black AM, but looking at BCM that are mossy, have side sprigs, missing toes, wrong colored shanks, etc... wasn't as obvious to me when I bought my first batch of BCM. That little experience cost me a year and hundreds of dollars. I worry about the same thing happening with the AMs

 

[FowlStuff]

John, I know what you're referring to, and that didn't have anything to do with BYC, and happened way before I got AMs, so I don't have a dog in that hunt. I enjoy a good debate, not an argument, and the debates help me learn when the participants know so much more than me.
I know that hatcheries sell the same birds as breeders breed for show, it just surprised me that as the developer of many of these birds you were promoting the hatcheries acquisition of them. Did they get them from you under the guise of improving their EEs? If so, I would think you would be livid that they turned around and started selling your own birds for more than you sell them for. I know that they could pick up birds from any breeder that would sell, any time they wanted to. It just surprised me that you refer to so many people as "fanciers" and "exhibitors", but seemed happy about the mass production of AMs. This is a serious question, would you have more respect for someone that bought a hatchery bird and worked with them than you would someone who bought better stock from a breeder and continued to work with the already improved birds?
I guess what worries me about all of this is my experience with BCM. Right now, if you search "Ameraucana", most of your returns will either be fairly SOP AMs or Easter Eggers. At least if someone has done a minimum of research, the difference is obvious with just a glance. The BCM are much more difficult. They have gotten so popular and so thinned out, by hatcheries or unscrupulous breeders, that bad stock isn't readily visible to a novice. I can pick out an orange EE sitting beside a black AM, but looking at BCM that are mossy, have side sprigs, missing toes, wrong colored shanks, etc... wasn't as obvious to me when I bought my first batch of BCM. That little experience cost me a year and hundreds of dollars. I worry about the same thing happening with the AMs

A debate or to argue your point works for me. One of my sayings is none of us were born with the knowledge we have.

When Jeff, at Cackle, ordered them I assumed he was going to start offering LF black Ameraucanas. Later in an email he said he would be "adding them to our easter egger flock" and I assumed that was all they were doing with them. I just found out a day or so ago they were offering them. I say all that to try to answer the question, but I was hoping they would offer them and understand that once they buy the chicks they can do as they please.
It would be nice if all the commercial hatcheries would offer them. It could only help to promote the breed and as always with any standard breed fanciers will learn to go to top breeders for top stock. Look how many backyarders start out with "hatchery" birds and feed store chicks that are the same. Look how often you see the same posts here asking if their chicken is an Ameraucana. Education is the key and although we won't all agree some of us feel this is yet another step in the right direction.
Some times different life views are going to influence how we see this. I am not a "save the heritage chicken" type of guy. I don't believe some chicken breeds are "blue bloods". If someone prefers Easter Eggers over standard bred chickens that is completely up to them. My only concern is that there is truth in advertising and that all decisions are based on fact.
We may not agree on the road, but I believe we have common ground in the end.

 

[junebuggena]

A debate or to argue your point works for me. One of my sayings is none of us were born with the knowledge we have.

When Jeff, at Cackle, ordered them I assumed he was going to start offering LF black Ameraucanas. Later in an email he said he would be "adding them to our easter egger flock" and I assumed that was all they were doing with them. I just found out a day or so ago they were offering them. I say all that to try to answer the question, but I was hoping they would offer them and understand that once they buy the chicks they can do as they please.
It would be nice if all the commercial hatcheries would offer them. It could only help to promote the breed and as always with any standard breed fanciers will learn to go to top breeders for top stock. Look how many backyarders start out with "hatchery" birds and feed store chicks that are the same. Look how often you see the same posts here asking if their chicken is an Ameraucana. Education is the key and although we won't all agree some of us feel this is yet another step in the right direction.
Some times different life views are going to influence how we see this. I am not a "save the heritage chicken" type of guy. I don't believe some chicken breeds are "blue bloods". If someone prefers Easter Eggers over standard bred chickens that is completely up to them. My only concern is that there is truth in advertising and that all decisions are based on fact.
We may not agree on the road, but I believe we have common ground in the end.

I think it's wonderful that there are now two big hatcheries, Cackle and Meyer, that are now saying "Here are our Easter Eggers, and these are our Ameraucana." They are finally acknowledging that Ameraucana are not Easter Eggers, and Easter Eggers are not Ameraucana. This is the sort of change that the big chick industry has needed for years. Maybe others will now follow suit.

 

[scflock]

I think it's wonderful that there are now two big hatcheries, Cackle and Meyer, that are now saying "Here are our Easter Eggers, and these are our Ameraucana." They are finally acknowledging that Ameraucana are not Easter Eggers, and Easter Eggers are not Ameraucana. This is the sort of change that the big chick industry has needed for years. Maybe others will now follow suit. 

Honestly, I can see valid points on both sides, and that's why I keep pushing John. I wanted to hear his "why", and if it's to help differentiate the breeds at the hatcheries, then that's an honorable goal.
I still have 2 flocks of hatchery birds, and they are great backyard pets and egg producers. Hatcheries are what got me started on this journey, but I never really got interested in actually studying the birds like I am now until I got breeder quality birds and started talking to real breeders like you guys

 

[samouw]

The difference between a breeder, a (to use someone else's term - @scflock ) propagator, and a mass producer. One breeds with a specific phenotype goal in mind; whether that goal is a published and accepted SOP or a project variety within a specific breed, or even an entire new breed. A breeder pulls the various sought-for traits together through different lines, different breeds, different varieties and, over time and through selective breeding and often heavy culling, approaches the original goal,

A propagator's goals are much more personal - perhaps meat on the table, eggs with breakfast, or to sell a few chicks to friends and family so that they, too will have meat on the table and eggs on the counter. While they may practice selective breeding, it is more for the end purpose - who grows the fastest and has the best meat or which bird produces the most eggs. What that high-yield hen looks like is way down the list.

A mass producer's goal is sales. If a specific type (such as blue egg layer) produces sales, then they want blue egg layers on their menu of choices. They are not going to grow out this year's hatches to see who most closely matches the SOP for that breed - those chicks are long gone. They are not going to cull a line of birds that are consistently producing disqualifying faults, as long as those disqualifying faults don't affect the health and viability of those chicks long enough to get them out the door. They certainly are not going to choose the best of each hatch and spend time and money to exhibit them to get qualified opinions on the direction of their breeding program. They can't - they don't have a breeding program.

Eventually, the breeder - through careful selection and tough decisions about culling - will achieve their goal, if it is achievable.

Eventually the propagator, will be self-sufficient with his group of backyard layers and, with considered introductions of new blood occasionally, will maintain his family's meat and egg needs.

Eventually the mass producer will have created a line and gene pool of birds that are so far from any standard that they will no longer be recognizable as the original breed and will split the breed into "hatchery-quality" and "breeder-quality". Unfortunately, the folks that are just getting started in the breed won't have developed the eye to see the difference, or the knowledge to understand that there is a difference until they've spent money, time, and resources trying to take that sow's ear and turn it into a silk purse.

I'm not just guessing or prophesying. This has happened in other breeds. Look at the Rhode Island Reds - even though they started out as commercial birds and then split into hatchery and breeder quality - there is a clear delineation between the two types. This isn't spin - this is what will happen.

I wasn't aware that another hatchery was already selling Ameraucana blues - if they are, then the scenario painted above will be repeated within the Ameraucana blue gene pool, too. Unfortunately, that is a gene pool that already has issues, with few breeders taking on the challenge of leakage.

I've not been a breeder of Ameraucana for decades. I was fortunate that I started with a well-respected line - Jean Ribbeck's - and I've tried to build on that line for the last 5 years. Last year, I cleaned out all my pens of non-Ameraucana and decided to dedicate my efforts purely to the Ameraucana breed. I will keep breeding my Ameraucanas to the best of my ability. I can't imagine that any breeder with the best intentions of the breed at heart, would do otherwise.

 

[Miss Ameraucana]

The difference between a breeder, a (to use someone else's term - @scflock
) propagator, and a mass producer.  One breeds with a specific phenotype goal in mind; whether that goal is a published and accepted SOP or a project variety within a specific breed, or even an entire new breed.  A breeder pulls the various sought-for traits together through different lines, different breeds, different varieties and, over time and through selective breeding and often heavy culling, approaches the original goal,

A propagator's goals are much more personal - perhaps meat on the table, eggs with breakfast, or to sell a few chicks to friends and family so that they, too will have meat on the table and eggs on the counter.  While they may practice selective breeding, it is more for the end purpose - who grows the fastest and has the best meat or which bird produces the most eggs.  What that high-yield hen looks like is way down the list.

A mass producer's goal is sales. If a specific type (such as blue egg layer) produces sales, then they want blue egg layers on their menu of choices.  They are not going to grow out this year's hatches to see who most closely matches the SOP for that breed - those chicks are long gone. They are not going to cull a line of birds that are consistently producing disqualifying faults, as long as those disqualifying faults don't affect the health and viability of those chicks long enough to get them out the door. They certainly are not going to choose the best of each hatch and spend time and money to exhibit them to get qualified opinions on the direction of their breeding program. They can't - they don't have a breeding program.

Eventually, the breeder - through careful selection and tough decisions about culling - will achieve their goal, if it is achievable.

Eventually the propagator, will be self-sufficient with his group of backyard layers and, with considered introductions of new blood occasionally, will maintain his family's meat and egg needs.

Eventually the mass producer will have created a line and gene pool of birds that are so far from any standard that they will no longer be recognizable as the original breed and will split the breed into "hatchery-quality" and "breeder-quality".  Unfortunately, the folks that are just getting started in the breed won't have developed the eye to see the difference, or the knowledge to understand that there is a difference until they've spent money, time, and resources trying to take that sow's ear and turn it into a silk purse.

I'm not just guessing or prophesying. This has happened in other breeds.  Look at the Rhode Island Reds - even though they started out as commercial birds and then split into hatchery and breeder quality - there is a clear delineation between the two types. This isn't spin - this is what will happen.

I wasn't aware that another hatchery was already selling Ameraucana blues - if they are, then the scenario painted above will be repeated within the Ameraucana blue gene pool, too.  Unfortunately, that is a gene pool that already has issues, with few breeders taking on the challenge of leakage.

I've not been a breeder of Ameraucana for decades. I was fortunate that I started with a well-respected line - Jean Ribbeck's -  and I've tried to build on that line for the last 5 years. Last year, I cleaned out all my pens of non-Ameraucana and decided to dedicate my efforts purely to the Ameraucana breed. I will keep breeding my Ameraucanas to the best of my ability. I can't imagine that any breeder with the best intentions of the breed at heart, would do otherwise.

Well said.

 

[buddy phoenix]

I thank everyone who answered my question. I think I will just sell chicks

 

[bruceha2000]

I'm pretty sure that Cackle always called their non-standard stock Easter Eggers. It's Murray McMurray that uses the Araucana/Ameraucana title.

So does Ideal, because there is no APA EE breed, therefore they ARE Ameraucana. Not verbatim, but that is what I got from them in an email in 2012 inquiring if they were selling true Ameraucanas. Head in the sand, ignorant or sleazy ad men, I don't know.

I think it's wonderful that there are now two big hatcheries, Cackle and Meyer, that are now saying "Here are our Easter Eggers, and these are our Ameraucana." They are finally acknowledging that Ameraucana are not Easter Eggers, and Easter Eggers are not Ameraucana. This is the sort of change that the big chick industry has needed for years. Maybe others will now follow suit.

They will likely be forced to do so since a majority of people looking through the online (*) catalogs of big commercial hatcheries will notice that some are selling EEs AND Ameraucanas. There is a difference, who knew?? Not me when I first ordered in 2012, it wasn't until I got to reading more here on BYC that I found out. But if I saw both on a website, I sure would think about it. Don't know how long it will take to trickle down to the feed stores though.

* Ideal has screwed theirs up so bad I wouldn't order from them again even though the commercial hatchery quality birds I got were satisfactory for a backyard flock.

 

[junebuggena]

So does Ideal, because there is no APA EE breed, therefore they ARE Ameraucana. Not verbatim, but that is what I got from them in an email in 2012 inquiring if they were selling true Ameraucanas. Head in the sand, ignorant or sleazy ad men, I don't know.


They will likely be forced to do so since a majority of people looking through the online (*) catalogs of big commercial hatcheries will notice that some are selling EEs AND Ameraucanas. There is a difference, who knew?? Not me when I first ordered in 2012, it wasn't until I got to reading more here on BYC that I found out. But if I saw both on a website, I sure would think about it. Don't know how long it will take to trickle down to the feed stores though.

* Ideal has screwed theirs up so bad I wouldn't order from them again even though the commercial hatchery quality birds I got were satisfactory for a backyard flock.

That's the same excuse that my feed store gives (they order for Ideal). 'There is no breed called Easter Egger, so they have to be Ameraucana.' Nevermind the fact that there are no breeds called 'Ideal 236', Production Black, or Production Red; but they sell those, too.