Ameraucana thread for posting pictures and discussing our birds

[FowlStuff]

John, I really do respect you, and that's a helpful answer. So even if I do darken my blues, which is happening, that won't affect the lacing? That's a gene independent of color?

The proper genotype is...

Quote: http://chickengenetics.edelras.nl/

ERER PgPg DbDb MlMl CoCo

Black Ameraucanas should be based on Extended Black (E), while it is thought the best laced blues are based on Birchen (E^R).

I know that is the simple short answer. Generally that is what I give here and don't go into a lot of detail, because my reason for joining this forum has only been to promote Ameraucanas and the Ameraucana Alliance. I've not been shy about that promotion and some have joined because of it. I'm always big on FREE promotion. I recently wrote a post on this thread about the benefits of breed club membership and have an article about the it in the April issue of the Poultry Press.

 

[pips&peeps]

There is no way to determine if you blues or blacks are based on E^R, since most black ameraucanas were bred from crossing easter eggers to black australorps. There was no genetic testing done to determine what those early birds were based on.

 

[jerryse]

All this talk about blues and lacing plus the E or ER . This has made me loose interest in the blues . I no longer have them in bantam and down to a quad in LF .

 

[Sylvester017]

There is no way to determine if you blues or blacks are based on E^R, since most black ameraucanas were bred from crossing easter eggers to black australorps. There was no genetic testing done to determine what those early birds were based on.

I never heard this breeding history before about the Black Ameraucanas. So glad to have caught this post! Because Lorps have SCs is it possible that is why a BBS Ameraucana can pop up with a SC rather than Peacomb in later generations? Kinda the way a Rosecomb Dominique can hatch a SC chick because of the mixed history in its ancestry?

 

[jerryse]

I never heard this breeding history before about the Black Ameraucanas. So glad to have caught this post! Because Lorps have SCs is it possible that is why a BBS Ameraucana can pop up with a SC rather than Peacomb in later generations? Kinda the way a Rosecomb Dominique can hatch a SC chick because of the mixed history in its ancestry?

Really a different issue on rosecomb breeds . Those single combs are there because rosecomb can cause fertility problems in males . So some breeders use males with rose / single combs . In Ameraucana it should not happen . It is not that hard to eliminate recessive genes .

 

[WalnutHill]

My chickens are mutts, my rooster is a salmon Faverolle / am cross. He has a pea comb and spawns offspring with a pea comb no matter the mother's comb. But Am, no.

 

[tigercreek]

Interesting read on the Kipenjungle site...if you continue to read there, it states that to get the true lacing described in the SOP, you need Ml,Pg, and Co, .... :

Complex patterns:

Meant are black patterns on individual groundcolored feathers, not the dark/melanized versions of wildtype up to black. Examples are lacing (concentric pencilling, double and single lacing), spangling (not mottling) and transverse pencilling (autosomal barring). Sexlinked barring or cuckoo is in the next paragraph ... . Black pigment is shifted and sometimes enhanced for these effects. An important melanizer to do just that, and thereby influencing patterns, is "Melanotic" Ml. Melanotic is dominant, especially for the females, and is able to make "extended black" and "birchen" based animals full black. It enhances and shifts black pigment to the edges of the feather. A typical effect is halfmoon spangling on the tips of the feather.

Pattern gene Pg arranges black pigment, eg the stippling, in concentric lines. Pg alone leaves the feather rim (outerlace) groundcolored. The black breast of the rooster can become groundcolor tipped by this effect. This is concentric pencilling or multiple lacing (Pg).

Combined with Ml the concentric lines become broader and shift towards the edge of the feather, making the outer rim black: double laced (Pg+Ml). Roosters become quite dark by the action of Ml.

By adding Columbian Co the inner laces are removed and you get single lacing (Pg+Ml+Co).

When you add Darkbrown Db to concentric pencilling then the pencilling becomes transverse: autosomal barring (Db+Pg). Given enough black this will be true barring like in the Campine breed, else the bars are "pinched" at the edges and nerve giving a wheatear type pattern, quill.

Adding Melanotic Ml will render complete spangling at the tip of the feather as in the Hamburgh breed: spangled (Db+Pg+Ml).

Finally adding columbian will give single lacing again, but not with a solid tail but a laced one as in the Sebright breed (Db+Pg+Ml+Co). Most patterns are on "partridge/brown" or "birchen" base.
The latter needs Darkbrown Db to show pattern.

 

[samouw]

Interesting read on the Kipenjungle site...if you continue to read there, it states that to get the true lacing described in the SOP, you need Ml,Pg, and Co, .... :

Complex patterns:

Meant are black patterns on individual groundcolored feathers, not the dark/melanized versions of wildtype up to black. Examples are lacing (concentric pencilling, double and single lacing), spangling (not mottling) and transverse pencilling (autosomal barring). Sexlinked barring or cuckoo is in the next paragraph ... . Black pigment is shifted and sometimes enhanced for these effects. An important melanizer to do just that, and thereby influencing patterns, is "Melanotic" Ml. Melanotic is dominant, especially for the females, and is able to make "extended black" and "birchen" based animals full black. It enhances and shifts black pigment to the edges of the feather. A typical effect is halfmoon spangling on the tips of the feather. Pattern gene Pg arranges black pigment, eg the stippling, in concentric lines. Pg alone leaves the feather rim (outerlace) groundcolored. The black breast of the rooster can become groundcolor tipped by this effect. This is concentric pencilling or multiple lacing (Pg). Combined with Ml the concentric lines become broader and shift towards the edge of the feather, making the outer rim black: double laced (Pg+Ml). Roosters become quite dark by the action of Ml. By adding Columbian Co the inner laces are removed and you get single lacing (Pg+Ml+Co). When you add Darkbrown Db to concentric pencilling then the pencilling becomes transverse: autosomal barring (Db+Pg). Given enough black this will be true barring like in the Campine breed, else the bars are "pinched" at the edges and nerve giving a wheatear type pattern, quill. Adding Melanotic Ml will render complete spangling at the tip of the feather as in the Hamburgh breed: spangled (Db+Pg+Ml). Finally adding columbian will give single lacing again, but not with a solid tail but a laced one as in the Sebright breed (Db+Pg+Ml+Co). Most patterns are on "partridge/brown" or "birchen" base.
The latter needs Darkbrown Db to show pattern.

Ok, good point. Reading the APA standard, the description of body color refers to page 37 - the blue Columbian. It describes the color as "Body - an even shade of clear bluish slate, each feather having a sharply defined lacing of black."

That begs the question, why do blue Ameraucanas not have this clear lacing? It has been argued on various sites that the Ameraucanas don't have true lacing - they have edging (a natural result of the dilute gene). Is it now necessary to bring in, for example the Andalusian, to get the correct pattern genes for that "sharply defined lacing of black"?

 

[tigercreek]

Ok, good point. Reading the APA standard, the description of body color refers to page 37 - the blue Columbian. It describes the color as "Body - an even shade of clear bluish slate, each feather having a sharply defined lacing of black."

That begs the question, why do blue Ameraucanas not have this clear lacing? It has been argued on various sites that the Ameraucanas don't have true lacing - they have edging (a natural result of the dilute gene). Is it now necessary to bring in, for example the Andalusian, to get the correct pattern genes for that "sharply defined lacing of black"?

I believe all blue chickens trace the dilute gene to Andalusian...I think we do need the Andalusian to get true lacing...some breeders are using Wyanndotts to get it...a geneticist once described edging / lacing to me this way...pull a feather and place it on a white piece of paper...if the outer rim is translucent, that's edging...if it has a black edge, that's lacing...the APA uses the two words interchangeably, but there is an obvious difference in the two..the reason the black lacing is missing is because we have been treating BBS as a single variety...when you breed black or splash, you don't know what you have as far as lacing..(Pg,Ml,Co)

 

[samouw]

I believe all blue chickens trace the dilute gene to Andalusian...I think we do need the Andalusian to get true lacing...some breeders are using Wyanndotts to get it...a geneticist once described edging / lacing to me this way...pull a feather and place it on a white piece of paper...if the outer rim is translucent, that's edging...if it has a black edge, that's lacing...the APA uses the two words interchangeably, but there is an obvious difference in the two..the reason the black lacing is missing is because we have been treating BBS as a single variety...when you breed black or splash, you don't know what you have as far as lacing..(Pg,Ml,Co)

So, let's take this a step further. What about Blue wheatens? The SOP doesn't refer back to the Columbian SOP - it just says "Breast - blue, preferably laced with dark blue." You're not going to get dark blue lacing using those pattern genes, right? You'll get black lacing, which is not in the standard. In this case, I would think the natural "edging" of the blue dilute gene would be sufficient.

I see what you're saying about the crossing varieties, but I would still debate whether it was necessary to bring in black to avoid the over-dilution of the blue from time to time. I've read different opinions on this, but have also seen long time Andalusian breeders that recommend the same. Granted, if the lacing is from the combination of pattern genes, bringing black back in won't help lacing, but it definitely would add some of those melanizers back in to darken the blue again.