American serama thread!

This post angers me beyond belief. :mad:  You are entitled to your opinion, however you are extremely short on facts. Culling is entirely up to the specific breeder and NOT affiliated with a specific club or organization. Some of the best breeders worldwide are member of all 3 clubs-ASA, SCNA & Serama USA. Each club has a slightly different way of showing and scoring, however ANY GOOD BREEDER works to better the breed according to breed standards. If you have ethics issues that would prevent your from buying from a breeder that culls for type, personality etc. then that is your perrogative. But please refrain from bashing an organization based on your personal opinion and not fact! :old  I have wonderful friends and breeders in all 3 organizations. Some cull heavily. Some rehome their culls as pets. But let me call an ace an ace and a spade a spade here! Only about 10% of hatches are breeder quality and 5% are show quality. That leaves a lot of undeesirablle birds out there to be "rehomed". As mentioned by @Poultrybonkers
 Seramas are a special breed that require special care, housing and feed and do not "provide" as far as a meat bird or good layer if they can not sell for show or breeding. They make wonderful "pets" but many times people choose something other than a mini chicken if they want a "pet" bird.

The problem with "pet quality" and people buying and selling them is drawing the fine line as far as intentions and representation of the bird. I read the above post of someone looking for "pet quality" but looking for a specific type, size color, standard, fertility etc...... None of these should be a concern if you are truly looking for "pet quality"!!! Sex, color and mostly personality/disposition & health should be your only concerns if truly want just a pet. People will buy culls from people "rehoming" birds and still try to breed them as a representation of that breeders line. They think that because there is a big name behind the bird, it's a "good bird". This could not be further from the truth. They will often breed them and then try to sell their eggs on ebay with pics of "parent birds" when in fact they are selling eggs from culls of the parents that are more likely to carry traits such as the lethal gene, wry or squirrel tail and aggressive dispositions that will be passed down to future generations.

Most disheartening  is when "starter birds" are offered to Juniors for free just pay shipping. These birds are often rehomed culls-often given at 3-4 months of age who are not nearly mature enough to tell if they have automatic disqualifications. They are all excited to show and proud of their bird only to find out they spent their $65 hard earned 4H money (or their parents) only to find out that their bird will be disqualified every time it shows as there is no fixing a wry or squirrel tail or an aggressive bird. You can find a good local breeder (i work with several just in my area) who will sell you a bird that is decent enough to breed or show in the $50-$100 range for Juniors and 4H kids. Well worth the extra money in my opinion.

I do not like to cull and have not done it yet as I have the room and luxury to grow out my birds to see how they mature. I have successfully rehomed several of my birds. Some have gone to petting zoos, some to friends and other to people who state they want "pet birds". I ask them to sign a contract stating that they are aware that these birds are being sold as "pet quality" only and are not meant to breed or shown at any level. That way my name stays reputable as far as breeding and showmanship. I also do not sell eggs or birds that are not of laying age to see how the bird grow out to ensure people are getting what they pay for. 

Also, in regards to yellow legs and beaks, seramas show 2 different ways-in cage and tabletop. Cage right now is APA/ABA standards which is white only with hopefully blacks next to be admitted. Tabletop is colorblind. Although yellow legs/beak is preferred as far as breeding, I feel that focus on type, tail and wing carriage, feather quality and disposition character are so much more important until the groups can work together to get more varities can be accepted for cage judging. 

I am proud to be showing at the dual ASA/SCNA show in Lima, OH on 3/18. I have been fortunate to have acquired birds from and mentored by some of the finest breeders in the country-ASA, SCNA & Serama USA.  My pullet won champion pullet 2016 and my silkie cockerel took reserve champion of show 2016 at the ASA Serama Nationals. Also all 5 birds that I showed at Ohio Nationals won quality ribbons scoring 75 pts or higher. My focus this year is to try to improve feather quality and disposition on white birds, further develop my reds and successfully breed more of my Malaysians since they have proven a challenge for me to breed, hatch and raise. 


TOUCHED A NERVE DID WE???

I was the California State Rep for ASA (went to every TT SHOW in CA) for 4 years and I got SICK of seeing posts about publicly anounncing I have culled/killed all my trash and not wanting to rehome any less than perfect birds I was fed up and sick of that. I did not want to represent a bunch of people that PUBLICLY BOASTED about killing. What you do at your OWN HOUSE is private When U PUBLICLY say it it is no longer private. I PUBLICLY announced my resignation for these very reasons. and pretty much KILLED ASA on the west coast. I did good.
U ask Dianne Brewer about me.....
 
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Grabbed a few pictures of my babies. The 3 largest are about 3 months old and 1 young one is 1.5-2months, it's hiding with the sultan chicks who are 1month old. Can someone name their colors for me? The youngest I am pretty sure is just a black barred. The one I'm going to name Pigey (because she is colored like my friends roller pigeons) is a dark chocolate color, not sure how well that photographs. The lighter brown is more like a brown leghorn with gold hackles and a reddish brown body color. My little roo is really bad, but pretty colors and just fine for me as a pet as they all are.
Love babies!!! Nice bunch!!!
 
TOUCHED A NERVE DID WE???

I was the California State Rep for ASA (went to every TT SHOW in CA) for 4 years and I got SICK of seeing posts about publicly anounncing I have culled/killed all my trash and not wanting to rehome any less than perfect birds I was fed up and sick of that. I did not want to represent a bunch of people that PUBLICLY BOASTED about killing. What you do at your OWN HOUSE is private When U PUBLICLY say it it is no longer private. I PUBLICLY announced my resignation for these very reasons. and pretty much KILLED ASA on the west coast. I did good.
U ask Dianne Brewer about me.....
My point is that you should not represent a group as a whole based on your opinion instead of fact. Shame on you. To be proud that you "killed" a club on the west coast and publicly boasting about it on a chicken information website is exactly the reason why there is such divide in the serama community!!!! You make it more about you and your opinion when it comes to culling and your hatred of certain individuals... and I quote "pretty much killed ASA on the west coast. I did good. U ask Dianne Brewer about me......." There are so many wonderful birds in the ASA, SCNA and Serama USA. I don't need to attack individuals of certain clubs or brag and name drop to prove a point or breed and show quality birds in all groups. I enjoy the beauty of the breed through all of the groups eyes. If you were sick of seeing people boasting about killing their trash, why did you not just block the individuals that were doing it instead of being proud of being "the demise" of a club. It is what is wrong in the Serama world, politics, religion etc..... Because you have a different opinion than someone else does not make it right or wrong, better or worse. You stated in your original post to stay away from the ASA because they cull heavily. I am a member of ASA and I do not cull for reasons other than health. You did not say it was because they brag about it. And if they did brag about it, I believe that is what we call freedom of speech. I do not know Jerry personally, nor do I know Dianna, however I am pretty sure that Jerry has culled birds and so has Dianne. I do not believe that anywhere in the ASA or SCNA or Serama USA rules or guidelines is there a rule about culling or speaking of it. By speaking of individuals directly, I can see your anger is more focused on people and politics and less on what you truly state the real "problem" is (culling). I wish you peace in whatever situation is that is causing you such hostility regarless and leave you with this final thought.
 
I believe you are referring to me.
I want seramas, not OEGB. I have read enough to know that seramas can be small, much smaller than OEGB and that is what I wanted. It did not have to stand with it's breast above it's head or on it's tippey toes. Just small and more upright than straight when something got it's attention. So as a somewhat experienced "bird" keeper, I do know what I want and maybe what I want is in lines with SQ or BQ and not a random cull which looks more like a OEGB than a serama, otherwise I would just get a OEGB and be done with it.

I understand people who refuse to sell and "cull" their lines. I understand their reasoning behind it after talking to show breeders of English budgies. I do not agree with it, but I understand. There are plenty of unscrupulous people in this world which will do exactly as you say and sell offspring to unsuspecting and uninformed buyers that their birds are from "someone famous" line of birds. A lot of show people will cull, kill, their birds who do not meet their expectations. I have a friend who although a loveable guy, will to this day cull a bird that is not good enough in his eyes to sell. So I get it, SQ breeders will not and do not want their names associated with a less than stellar bird.

I do breed English budgies. But if you ask me or wanted to buy from me I would make sure you are informed straight away, before your visit, that my birds are not show quality but are pet quality. I believe in honesty. My birds are sold for pets. I do have some SQ breeding stock but as a whole I do not think they make good pets as the lifespans can be too short, the birds suffer problems from too much inbreeding and recessives coming out. They tend not to be as hardy as "pet quality". Saying that, I will always keep back the "good" birds as future breeders to always improve my bloodlines. But never will I say my birds are SQ unless I, myself, decide to show them and prove they are. I will tell you straight away that if you want a healthy, well muscled budgie as a pet then I have the bird for you. I do the same with my chickens. My sultans are rarely sold and when I do sell them it's only my "culls" which do not meet my criteria to add back into my breeding program. I will inform the buyer of the faults which imo make them "culls".

Basically what it boils down to is that if you are uninformed about a breed, don't buy it. There are people out there who will sell you a parakeet and tell you it's a cockatiel, or in this case a OEGB and tell you it's a serama. ANY person worth their salt, parents of 4h'ers, will do their study on the breeds and make a decision about which chickens to get for their kid. No one would let a little kid pick it and if they did, shame on them.
 
I won a ebay auction for some serama eggs. I have been reading up and it's not my first go at it..my incubator died on me last time and I lost the eggs :( My sultan eggs did fine with the short lack of heat but the seramas did not. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this time I have no mishaps and I will be careful not to over load the bator and kill my turner.

So, I'm really excited about the possibility of having seramas. I've wanted some for a while now and have not been able to find any which I think are decent pet quailty. Most around here seem to be mixed with OEGB, have a bad stance or are just too big.

We hatch and rear button quail and to the guy who thinks seramas are dumb..try button quail, they are totally sucidal if you do not keep a eye on them.
Would you mind if I asked what you paid for your eggs? I would be more concerned about shipping and mishandling of eggs by the post office then time on the truck or more likely in a warehouse. Serama eggs are already more difficult to hatch so shipping does not help. I have successfully hatched shipped eggs but I also consider 25-30% a good hatch on shipped serama eggs. If you are looking for decent birds, @TJChickens often has egg auctions on the 24 hour auction thread. With that being said shipped egss-really any serama eggs are a risk. Only 10% will be breeder quality so if you are only hatching a dozen minus the 25% lethal gene minus the stress on shipped eggs, unless your eggs come from an exceptional line, there is a very slim chance that you will hatch the kind of bird you are looking for. What you are describing as far as bad stance or being too big are reasons why breeders don't keep certain birds and ask more money for other that are "pet quality". If you really just want a nice pet flock within a certain budget, try to focus on color and disposition as many pet qualities will be larger or have a longer back. If you aren't wanting to breed or show and you really would like more of a "type" serama, May I suggest looking for pet culls that have wry tail or squirrel tail. These are genetic defects that are automatic disqualifications but will look much more like the serama you are describing. A wry tail will lean to one side and a squirrel tail will come up over the back. If you do not mind these defects and are not to reproduce for profit, you can get some nice birds fairly cheap or free from breeders who do not cull. hope this helps!
 
o.o
I did not know to look for yellow...
do certain ages or colors have dark beaks? It's dark here but I do recall they have yellow legs and the legs look thicker than a small body bird would have, disproportionate. I'm hoping I do not get the "stumpy" leg gene, it was hard to tell with the wings being dropped so far to the ground. Stumpies are adorable but I know that 2 copies is a fail. LOL with my luck, they are all stumpies. I did not have time to look them over good after getting home since I had to tend to the birds and chickens before dark.

ok, dang it, I have to go out with a flash light and look at beaks. Blast you!

If you were to show seramas someday (this is a quote from Jer Schex): "American and Traditional are basically the same bird, main distinguishing factor is color. Americans have a color standard, Traditional do not. American Serama are bred for in cage (ABA/APA) showing/judging. Traditional Serama are bred for Table Top (SCNA) showing/judging.
Another group recognizes the American Serama only and they run the same birds both in cage and table top. This is being frowned upon by the larger venues."

White is currently the only recognized color for in-cage showing. There are other colors (such as black, blue, etc) that are in the process for becoming accepted. Here's the information on the standards and scroll towards the bottom for color standards for each color: http://www.scnaonline.org/standards-and-judging/american-serama-standard-and-incage-judging.html

You will see that for these standard colors (and you may not even have any birds that would fit the plumage of one of the standard colors), a lot of them call for a shading over yellow, such as black shading over yellow for black & exchequer, blue over yellow for blue, etc. I can tell you that for chocolates (pretty sure they haven't submitted an application yet) it will be chocolate shading over yellow, which looks like this (screenshot from one of Jerry's posts showing example of future chocolate standard):



So you see that while yellow, it's not straight yellow. Regardless, if you wished to show your current birds or their offspring someday, you could show them as Traditional in a tabletop setting and have no concerns about color at all. There, the focus is on type, character, personality, and bird being well-proportioned and in good condition.

Hope that helps! Enjoy your new seramas! They're addicting and you'll probably have more before you know it! ;)
 
Would you mind if I asked what you paid for your eggs? I would be more concerned about shipping and mishandling of eggs by the post office then time on the truck or more likely in a warehouse. Serama eggs are already more difficult to hatch so shipping does not help. I have successfully hatched shipped eggs but I also consider 25-30% a good hatch on shipped serama eggs. If you are looking for decent birds, @TJChickens often has egg auctions on the 24 hour auction thread. With that being said shipped egss-really any serama eggs are a risk. Only 10% will be breeder quality so if you are only hatching a dozen minus the 25% lethal gene minus the stress on shipped eggs, unless your eggs come from an exceptional line, there is a very slim chance that you will hatch the kind of bird you are looking for. What you are describing as far as bad stance or being too big are reasons why breeders don't keep certain birds and ask more money for other that are "pet quality". If you really just want a nice pet flock within a certain budget, try to focus on color and disposition as many pet qualities will be larger or have a longer back. If you aren't wanting to breed or show and you really would like more of a "type" serama, May I suggest looking for pet culls that have wry tail or squirrel tail. These are genetic defects that are automatic disqualifications but will look much more like the serama you are describing. A wry tail will lean to one side and a squirrel tail will come up over the back. If you do not mind these defects and are not to reproduce for profit, you can get some nice birds fairly cheap or free from breeders who do not cull. hope this helps!
Thank you for your input. My eggs are from within the state of Fl. I went with "local" eggs thinking it may make the trip less stressful for the eggs.

I have found some seramas locally which are very close to what I was after. They will probably be larger than I wanted judging by the size of their parents.

I like odd ball things, seramas to me are oddballs just due to the size of them. I had a teeny little oegb hen once who I loved and in my mind a serama should be smaller than she was, that's it, simple really :) At least to me haha. I wanted something that "looks" like a serama but did not have to be standing on a judging table or in a cage being judged. Just pets, but still wanted the look and tiny size.
 
If you were to show seramas someday (this is a quote from Jer Schex): "American and Traditional are basically the same bird, main distinguishing factor is color. Americans have a color standard, Traditional do not. American Serama are bred for in cage (ABA/APA) showing/judging. Traditional Serama are bred for Table Top (SCNA) showing/judging.
Another group recognizes the American Serama only and they run the same birds both in cage and table top. This is being frowned upon by the larger venues."

White is currently the only recognized color for in-cage showing. There are other colors (such as black, blue, etc) that are in the process for becoming accepted. Here's the information on the standards and scroll towards the bottom for color standards for each color: http://www.scnaonline.org/standards-and-judging/american-serama-standard-and-incage-judging.html

You will see that for these standard colors (and you may not even have any birds that would fit the plumage of one of the standard colors), a lot of them call for a shading over yellow, such as black shading over yellow for black & exchequer, blue over yellow for blue, etc. I can tell you that for chocolates (pretty sure they haven't submitted an application yet) it will be chocolate shading over yellow, which looks like this (screenshot from one of Jerry's posts showing example of future chocolate standard):



So you see that while yellow, it's not straight yellow. Regardless, if you wished to show your current birds or their offspring someday, you could show them as Traditional in a tabletop setting and have no concerns about color at all. There, the focus is on type, character, personality, and bird being well-proportioned and in good condition.

Hope that helps! Enjoy your new seramas! They're addicting and you'll probably have more before you know it! ;)
Thank you for the information. I have no future plans for showing, it's just for my own enjoyment :) I still enjoy knowing what the colors are called and how the bird "should" look even if my little guys come no where near it! I'm just going to enjoy my non show worthy Seramas and cheer their brethren on to win shows.
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So..Did someone pee in your cheerio's this week or are you always this loveable?

I can not understand why you are trolling this thread when you obviously hate the breed.
Just an FYI for everyone, that person has been going on in this manner about seramas since last summer at least. They're trying to get a rise out of us so best thing to do is pay them no attention.
 

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