Amprolium Questions

[HollyWoozle]

I'm sorry to be coming to you with yet more questions but I really appreciate this access to your knowledge. Sorry also for the length!

As some of you know, I lost Frida recently. Whilst the conclusion was issues with her reproductive system I do now have my suspicions that it was coccidiosis - Frida and none of the rest of the flock had/have blood in the droppings but I believe that's not always a symptom? I don't know where I could send droppings here for diagnosis and I am short on time... I have another hen on death's door and several looking a bit on the quiet side with watery droppings. They range a fairly spacious orchard with wild birds visiting and both Frida and the sick hen came from battery farms where I guess they would not have picked up certain immunity when they were young - two of the others looking a bit quiet are the other two from this farm (they are 2.5 and a have been here about a year). I do disinfect the coop, feeders and waterers regularly.

I am now treating the entire flock with Amprolium (via Harker's Coxoid) in the water and whilst I doubt the other very sick hen will pull through, she will still drink so I am giving her a chance.

My questions are:

1) Can I give Runa, the sick hen, something for energy? I have poultry nutri-drops but I think I'm right that you shouldn't supplement certain vitamins when using amprolium? Runa ate well yesterday (very fussy and would only eaten certain things, but she did eat) but today she just seems too exhausted to eat and can't keep her eyes open for long.

2) Can you treat with amprolium and ivermectin at the same time? Runa was actually already treated with ivermectin but we had a parasite infestation recently and I would like to treat the whole flock. Since there is a suggested egg withdrawal period for both treatments I wondered if I could treat the other chickens with ivermectin today too. They have already been sprayed with permethrin a week ago and the house has been blitzed but I am not confident in the spray's effectiveness (I plan to spray again in a week or so as I believe I have to break the egg cycle of the bugs).

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[RhodeIslandRed5]

That's what we're here for is to answer questions!
I do know you shouldn't mix vitamins with Corid, but I don't know about the other stuff. @Eggcessive @Wyorp Rock what are your thoughts?

 

[HollyWoozle]

Thank you, @RhodeIslandRed5. I'm quite upset by it all and this forum is so helpful.

 

[AmyJane725]

I don't see any reason you shouldn't mix a coccidiostat with a wormer, but we'll see what the experts say.

Sorry your girls aren't doing well. Thanks for giving battery hens another chance at life.

 

[sandesnow]

1 Yes, Coccidiosis does not always present with blood in the stool. In Most cases it does.
2 Any vet can chcck for coccidiosis. As it is a protozoa, it is found in pretty much every animal, dogs and cats included.
3 Battery hens can be problematic because of a few reasons, but one of them is that they are (normally) vaccinated against Mareks and ILT... and whatever else the 'farmer' paid for them to be vaccinated for. Unfortunately, that causes problems in an UN vaccinated flock, when you bring in vaccinated birds.
4 Battery Birds (Commercial Layers) honestly, are known to only live about 2-3 years. It is rare that they live much longer. Their genetic make up is made for them to lay as many eggs in the 18 months that they are on the farm. After that, they are pretty well spent and start having complications.
5 Amprolium - what is the percentage of Amprolium you are giving? 9.6% you will want to give for 7 days at 3 mils per litre of water, then 1 mil per 1 ltr of water for 2 weeks for prevention. Otherwise, you may as well not treat them. This is the problem with buying it OTC, because the dose is only 3.83%. It is designed for you to need to buy more.
Here is a look at my Vet label to prove the correct dose.


As to your Questions:
1 No, do not give vitamins while treating with Amprolium.
2 If they were sprayed with Permethrin a week ago, I would do a check at night, because that stuff is decent and should take care of your external parasites fully. Until you have proof that there are still external parasites, I would not treat for it again. With anything permethrin or prethrins related, (One is the synthetic version, the other is the natural version) I have only ever had to treat 1 time anytime they have been treated, never a follow up.
ETA 3
Some people use Ivermectin for external - so I am not clear on if you are using it internally or externally for parasites. If for a wormer, then you should be fine, however, also understand that medication overload can be an issue. Are you seeing evidence of worms? Or is the treatment for external parasites?

 

[Wyorp Rock]

I lost Frida recently. Whilst the conclusion was issues with her reproductive system I do now have my suspicions that it was coccidiosis - Frida and none of the rest of the flock had/have blood in the droppings but I believe that's not always a symptom? I don't know where I could send droppings here for diagnosis and I am short on time... I have another hen on death's door and several looking a bit on the quiet side with watery droppings.

Frida and the sick hen came from battery farms where I guess they would not have picked up certain immunity when they were young - two of the others looking a bit quiet are the other two from this farm (they are 2.5 and a have been here about a year).

Can I give Runa, the sick hen, something for energy? I have poultry nutri-drops but I think I'm right that you shouldn't supplement certain vitamins when using amprolium?

Can you treat with amprolium and ivermectin at the same time? Runa was actually already treated with ivermectin but we had a parasite infestation recently and I would like to treat the whole flock. Since there is a suggested egg withdrawal period for both treatments I wondered if I could treat the other chickens with ivermectin today too.

I'm sorry to about the loss of Frida.
So sad that the others are not doing well.
Ex-Batt hens do seem to have a rough time of it, it seems.
The Amprolium won't hurt them, so if you want to cover your bases, then I don't see why not. They have been on your property for about a year, so should have built resistance to the strains of Coccidia that are there, but a hen in a state of decline could easily become overloaded.

No, I would not give the Nutri-Drops if it contains B1(Thiamine) while they are on the Coxoid. Once you finish treatment, then I would give that to her along with some yogurt, buttermilk or purchased probiotics.

I don't know of an contraindications of using Ivermectin along with Corid.

In the UK Westgate Labs has a mail order service where you can send stool samples in for testing for worms.
https://www.westgatelabs.co.uk/

1 Yes, Coccidiosis does not always present with blood in the stool, but it does MOST times.

There are only 2 strains of Coccidia out of 9 that present with blood in the stool, so no, not most of the time. There could be blood or not, just depends on the strain.

 

[HollyWoozle]

Thanks @sandesnow, that's really helpful. The amprolium is 3.84%.

The flock was wormed with flubendazole mid-May and I don't see evidence of worms at this time. Both sick hens had mites on them (Frida also had lice!) - I did still see some mites on Frida AFTER spraying with permethrin so I ended up spraying her again in desperation and that seemed to do the trick. I haven't seen any mites on them again but I did find some red mite on one of our perches after the chickens and the coop had been sprayed, so the coop has been treated again.

Maybe I am just being paranoid about that part.

Aside from Runa who is very ill, I have noted consistently watery droppings in at least 4 other hens recently. A few have periods of looking quite 'off' and one is looking very pale, those only in the last few days. I have tried to prepare myself for the fact that ex-batts don't seem to last long but it seems odd to have several ill suddenly when I have had them for a year, plus it is not only the ex-batts looking iffy. It has been a lot warmer here lately, including Saturday being the hottest day of the year so far, so that could explain some of it (but Frida and Runa were unwell before that).

I think I will give Runa another day or two on the off-chance this treatment does anything and then put her out of her misery. I don't want her to suffer. I found a few instances online of people describing Runa exactly saying they treated for coccidiosis and the made miraculous recoveries so I guess I just got my hopes up!

@Wyorp Rock - thank you also for your thoughts.

 

[Cyprus]

Others have answered you well, so I'm going to change gears.

The other hen is very unlikely to make it by using a coccidiostat at this point in the game. A cocciostat only serves to slow the reproduction of the protozoa, not stop or kill it. It's better as a preventative.

 

[HollyWoozle]

Thank you, Cyprus. As much as I'd like to think she can make a comeback I will keep this in mind and assess her this afternoon.

 

[kellyhubb]

You shouldn't give Amprolium and B vitamins at the same time. Here is a reference to info on this - http://www.poultrydvm.com/condition/coccidiosis It doesn't sound like coccidiosis to me though. Have you tried bringing them to see a vet?