An interesting Duckling

[CityChicker]

Quote:
I'm sure they have similar hybrid layers in Australia, but I doubt that it is the same breeding that Rollyard has going on (He actually already knows the parents are Saxony and Dark Dusky). The Metzer Golden 300's are a mix of more than 2 breeds, based on the well known sex-linked combination of breeding a Brown drake (of any breed) to a Black duck (also of any breed). Several of us have conjectured before about what all might have been included in the Golden 300's. Having watched their sexing video, I suspect they used just about every breed they raise, rather than just 2 or even 3 breeds (and possibly even some they don't typically raise).

There is too much variation in color for that not to be the case- all of course are the required Brown for the F1 hens and Black for the F1 drakes (reverse of the parent generation) but, some are Bibbed, some aren't, some are wild-type, some aren't, some are extended Black, some aren't, some are Harlequin phase, some aren't, one he holds up in the video even appears to be Restricted Mallard. To get all of those variations, they had to have used many different breeds. They are basically an awesome laying mixed breed of extremely varied history that rely highly on the phenomenon of Hybrid vigor. They are a really cool duck. I am going to order probably 20 of them (10 of each sex) just to see what all I get as far as mix of colors. You are very right as well that Rollyard might have some sex-linked gene involved even though those two parent breeds normally do not carry any sex-linkage. I think that is a great observation on your part. It shouldn't be the case with Saxony to Dark Dusky, but it may very well be part of what is going on.

 

[rollyard]

Treldib, thanks for those clips, I did watch both. The little brown duckling in the first clip looked like a brown mallard didn’t she. I also noticed the smallish dorsal spots. She was something like I would expect the female progeny bred from a kharki drake x with a normal wild-type mallard duck (grey) to look like. The ducklings in the second video did look like a real mix, with I think the first duckling picked up showing evidence of the pigment restriction usually seen when restricted mallard M^R gene involved?

The sex-linked thing did occur to me also. A couple of the lighter ducklings I have noticed look brown-ish in the above photos? When I first purchased my Saxony I was told by the breeder that the blue gene was infused from Buff Orpington stock. I have been a little concerned for quite some time (well, probably since I was told this lol) that some of his stock may still carry the recessive brown dilution gene? My drake does @ times show some small brown-ish patches around his cheeks I think from memory.

If he does have hetero brown dilution then yes, a percentage of progeny, both male & female, will inherit the gene, but the females will be those likely to express any brown-dilution influence. Could the lighter leg/bill colour in some birds be the result of combined diluters/inhibitors @ work? One factor all of these ducklings do have is a single dose of blue (Bl/bl+).

Dana, to answer your first question, & according to theory (which I no longer follow blindly), the dark dusky should be pure for the dusky gene m^d/m^d. Purchased when approx six weeks of age, she always looked dark dusky, the very reason for my initial interest in her. But I no longer would bet my life on this though, particularly after hearing about your M+ looking ducklings who now look m^d. Still, this duck, when x with a pure Kharki drake from a closed line 30+ years in the making did produce all phenotypically pure dusky ducklings. Here are some of the ducklings from that mating (kharki drake x dark dusky duck) at various ages. All darks are drakes, all brown are ducks as per expected sex-linkage:-

Now for the Li locus query. Kharki/dark campbells & Buff Orps here are Li+, Harlequins are of course li^h. There is a bit of a story behind this duck that I don’t think I have mentioned before? The lady who I purchased her from had bought four ducklings that were supposed to be Welsh Harlequin, but only two (drakes) from memory were (very very nice too, either absent or hetero for d). Of the other two, one light grey/yellow with single semi obscured eye-lines (a drake & grew out dusky but white underwing & some claret breaking?) & the other was the dark dusky duck. I did see photos of the supposed breeding birds, & again from memory some did look Harlequin, but others more mallard or dark Campbell like I think? What I have been a little concerned about for some time is could the dark dusky duck be Li+/li^h split going on her supposed Harlequin Hx? She does have white in some of the primary coverts? She has always been very dark & even darker now than when photos I have posted taken. Could some of the above ducklings be therefore li/li^h? Regardless, from the little I know, the ducklings with more facial, ventral etc yellow do look more light phase, particularly those with only one clear eye-stripe?

The middle following photo is the drakelet, the dark left upper is the dark dusky duck I purchased from the lady who originally purchased them as Welsh Harlequin:-

And a little older, drake front right, dark dusky duck rear right:-

Yes, now I understand exactly what you have said, but I did have to see it with my own eyes to believe it lol. I am becoming quite the sceptic. It looks a bit like M+ & m^d are having a power struggle for dominance doesn’t it. It would be interesting to source & x an old pure line breeding wild-type mallard bird with an old pure line breeding dark dusky, both supposedly Li+/Li+. Then, I @ least could be more confident in the results of my breeding? We know the reported results of some of the old tests done, but how did they differ to the birds individual breeders (like me & you) use today genetically? Theoretically, they should be the same, but are they in every instance?

From what I know & the little I have seen, li, & li^h particularly does restore some of those traits in pure duskies that you would expect to see in a mallard eg white underwings (not for li), claret breast, neck ring (partial or otherwise) etc in adults, so why not the eye-stripes & dorsal spots in duckling down? The thing is as these ducklings really should be M+/m^d split how do you tell if the mallard traits are the result of M+, or li/li, or li/li^h, or Li+/li for that matter? Whatever it is, I do think it is more than just li from the drake. If all ducklings were M+/m^d, Li+/li, Bl/bl+ alone, & variable expression aside, I would expect to see more consistency with phenotype.

Sorry if I have misinterpreted anything but slow typer & other pressing tasks await, I understand & can empathise with all that you have said, actually you have highlighted much I hadn’t thought of. It will be fun to see how these turn out & will try to post progressive photos. And if you get time, look forward to seeing some of yours.

Cheers

 

[love_a_duck]

Quote:
Okay, you all are so knowledgable about these ducklings,
but i just love these pictures.

this last one reminds me of the jets in "west side story"
their stance and the direct look at the camera.
"when you're a jet, youre a jet all the way,
from your first cigarette, to your last dying day"

my completely useless contribution to this thread.
love these ducks, rollyard.

 

[treldib]

Quote:
Okay, you all are so knowledgable about these ducklings,
but i just love these pictures.

this last one reminds me of the jets in "west side story"
their stance and the direct look at the camera.
"when you're a jet, youre a jet all the way,
from your first cigarette, to your last dying day"

my completely useless contribution to this thread.
love these ducks, rollyard.

 

[rollyard]

Love_a_duck & treldib, thanks for contributions, I haven’t seen “the jets in "west side story", but it sounds interesting

I think I need to clarify the “so why not the eye-stripes & dorsal spots in duckling down” in above post because I don‘t know that it makes too much sense? Let us say that the Sax drake is as he should be M+/M+, li/li, Bl/Bl & the dark dusky duck is as she should be m^d/m^d, Li+/Li+, bl+/bl+ resulting in ducklings M+/m^d, Li+/li, Bl/bl+. According to theory/dominance (& as CityChicker has rightly identified) all ducklings should appear Blue fawn.

Why then do six of the nine ducklings exhibit both mallard & dusky traits, & why are a couple very light/bright? The ducklings that exhibit both dusky & wild-type mallard traits could best be explained by the ducklings heterozygous state M+/m^d. But according to theory, the wild-type mallard features should really be dominant over the dusky mallard features, but this is not the case in six out of the nine ducklings! From that perspective it does look as though both M+ & m^d have expressed associated traits in six ducklings ie extended pigmentation, no dorsal spots, & facial eye-stripes yes.

But what about the other three lighter/brighter ducklings (the two youngest particularly) that have far reduced pigmentation with yellow down extending well up the thigh, sides generally, face, ventral surfaces, dorsal spots etc? We could expect to see brighter ducklings if homozygous for li/li yes, so the idea that the duck also has li ie her being Li+/li as opposed to Li+/Li+ sounds very reasonable. But could two of the ducklings brightness also be due to a balancing act between li (from the drake) & li^h (from the duck) ie heterozygous li/li^h?

If m^d does “hold its ground” against it’ allele M+, as it looks to do, will li/li^h (or li/li) assist M+ in expressing it’ commonly associated features? Both li & li^h do allow some wild-type mallard features to express in the pure dusky adult. It makes some sense to me that either li/li^h or li/li may assist in exposing some of the features obscured by m^d in the pressence of M+ going by the above results (ducklings)!

I think this makes more sense than previous post, but at the end of the day I guess I don‘t really know lol. Of course, there was some factor either present or absent in the dusky x (Kharki x dark dusky) because all of the brown female ducklings were far lighter than the pure Kharkis bred by the master breeder I sourced them from. I’m still working on that one.

Cheers

 

[CityChicker]

Quote:

 

[rollyard]

Some updated photos I took yesterday & posting while I have some time

The only three ducklings with dorsal spots, less pigmentation, brighter, particularly the younger two. Likely li/li or li/li^h

Centre photo duckling @ rear with head up; totally pigmented except for minimal facial markings, no dorsal spots. Likely Li+/li

Back shot showing more clearly some of the other six ducklings without any evidence of dorsal spots whatsoever

Note variation in facial markings folowing two photos

Another back shot

The two lighter younger ducklings left side, possibly li/li or li/li^h?

Quality of pics could be better sorry, but they are always on-the-go, wouldn't stand still. Someone would have to be a very good talker now to convince me that the dusky mallard gene has no influence on phenotype when split for wild-type allele & hetero dark-phase. In fact, I no longer believe that @ all. M+ appears to maintain the eye-stripes & m^d removes the dorsal spots while extending pigmented areas generally when hetero Li+ present. Will update again a little later, cheers

 

[Senna95]

So much information in this thread, I just had to pick it up again.....

Here's something interesting: This is a picture of one of my runner hens:

And here she was when she was just a duckling (she's the one in the front):

She came from some eggs I got from Dana, from a pen that had a blue trout drake, saxony hens, and one white hen who was suspected grey underneath. At first I thought she could be a blue trout, but now I suspect that she may be a dusky saxony, or possibly a dusky blue-trout. Or at least half dusky. She has no eye stripes or throat markings. Her wings are light colored underneath, and she has no penceling at all. She has a sister that is almost identical, except her bill is orange instead of dark (she's the one in the back, pictured with young blue-fawn drake and a saxony hen in the front):

Rollyard, for some reason I can't see your pictures anymore. Maybe they've expired? I'm curious to see how your ducklings turned out.

I have a baby out of the second hen pictured crossed with a snowy malard drake. The duckling looks like a blue trout. If my suspisions are correct about my hen, and my snowy malard is indeed wild malard pattern and NOT dusky this baby should be:

M+/md li/li^h Bl+/bl or else if the hen is only 1/2 dusky maybe M+/M+ li/li^h Bl+/bl

I'm trying to get more babies out of them, but of course they're not cooperating. They seem to be going through some sort of "marital spat" and want nothing to do with eachother. Hopefully they'll work it out soon.

Which brings up another issue: Snowy and Harlequin. According to Holderread's latest book, he says that Harlequin(the color) has both harlequin and dusky genes, and snowy is harlequin genes only, though many have the dusky gene as well as it enhances the color and give females the fawn hood. Well, none of my snowy malard females had the fawn hood (see photo), so I'm assuming that mine aren't dusky based. I've got hen #1 with a welsh harlequin drake. I'm very curious to see if those babies will be different.

Photo of my snowy malard hen:

She was my favorite duck (her name was Cleopatra), but unfortunately a raccoon got her early this spring.

 

[Senna95]

I just went out and got some photos of their little love-child. She's about a month and a half here (so she may still change):

You can see the blue in her, as well as the obvious eye-stripes. She's also very lightly colored, which makes me think li or li^h, but probably a combination concidering her parants.

Here's a picture of the snowy-malard papa-duck

Imput from the genetics experts would be GREAT!

Salut!

 

[gofasterstripe]

Senna do you have all different breeds of ducks running together or are they separated by breed. If they are seperated I would Love to buy some of your Runner eggs