Angelwing, protein levels, and processed food - Can this be a sticky?

[goosedragon]

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I'm not trying to make fun of you, just point out that the question is too complex to be solved by simple analysis of a very limited number of examples. Personally I think all of the mentioned factors could play a part~gd

 

[goosedragon]

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Yes like most deformities there are varying degrees, and no general agreement on the defition of angel wing, to the point that just about any wing problem gets stuck with the tag.

 

[DuckyBoys]

In my one case of angel wing it is certianly genetic. Genetics are a crap shoot - sometimes the gene carries throught sometimes it doesn't. But I had every single duckling on the same diet and only one got angel wing. The same one that was born with other genetic problems.

It is almost certainly a combination of both - genetic and some nutritional component that is not well understood. But high protein levels alone, that makes no sense at all.

Genetics alone, however, can account for almost everything you see in your animals.

My birds get no treats. Just Flock Riaser or Layena 2x a day and natrual forage. The geese forage a lot, but the ducks are in the aviary which has limited grass. However, the grass that is there is long and tasty looking right now - so they must not be all that starved for it or they'd eat it up. I have only had one call duck coem down with angel, and like I said, she had other genetic issues. None of my geese have angel wing and every sinlge bird on my place has the same diet.

Producers do use animal protein in their rations, just not the parts that are typically associated with prion disease, like anything that contains spinal cord fluid or central nervous system tissue. Flock Riaser is a soy based protein though, was probably cheaper than buying high quality meat based protein.

My wild ducks don't seem to want anything to do wth eating grass, it is mostly the runners who snack on it. So I don't know that forage is that important to some ducks. My calls don't seem to care either.

Geese, though, I think forage is important to geese. My pasture raised goslings look MUCH better than my brooder raised ones at the same age.

At any rate - I think people should absolutely ask their breeder what their angel wing ratio is and should not breed those that have it.

Just my opinion, but there is no convincing info out there that says it is anything BUT genetics. I think this protein stuff is a myth.

And not to be crass - but Metzer farms quotes a lady who did research in the 60's. They did not do a "real" genetic gene array study in the 60's and 70's (the technology didn't exist) so her studies were observational, not genetic. You could easily account for her observations based on limited gene pool alone (captivity and domestication).

http://books.google.com/books?lr=&q=Janet+Kear&btnG=Search+Books

 

[mountaintopchicken]

I've only scanned the previous 4 pages, but my experience with angel wing is that forage seems to decrease the occurrence of it.

My first waterfowl were brooded by a friend, indoors on only processed starter mix, with no grass. We had a few with angel wing.

All my other waterfowl have been brooded by me, and I start bringing in field greens to the brooder when they are only a couple of days old. Then I put them on grass during the day as soon as it's warm enough, even if it means moving the birds in and out more than once a day. I haven't had angel wing since. These are all hatchery birds, every year from the same hatchery. Of course, this is just anecdotal....

 

[Cottage Rose]

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I'm not trying to make fun of you, just point out that the question is too complex to be solved by simple analysis of a very limited number of examples. Personally I think all of the mentioned factors could play a part~gd

Often I don't word things properly...maybe I should of asked why more of them haven't gotten AW under the same management and I am aware of the genetic diversity among siblings.

GD I'm not trying to make fun of you but if you knew so much about geese you would know one gosling would not stay back by the food dish eating while the others where out grazing on grass. Besides they don't have access to their feed during the day anyway.

Maybe you missed where I stated the complexity of this topic and I certainly wasn't expecting easy answers rather I just interested in peoples thoughts/theories, hence I posed the questions above.

 

[goosedragon]

Sorry, yes I did note you mentioning that the subject was complex but you also asked for answers to your questions like there were easy answers to complex questions...
As for your comment "GD I'm not trying to make fun of you but if you knew so much about geese you would know one gosling would not stay back by the food dish eating while the others where out grazing on grass. Besides they don't have access to their feed during the day anyway." I had a gosling like the one I mentioned. I don't know why he was an outcast from the flock, he fit in ok while they were younger but at that point where their body growth slows and their 'flappers' grow to wings very rapidly he was out cast. At that time I was feeding 'free choice', food dish kept full all day. In fact it was the action of this little bugger that changed my feeding to evenings only so they would graze during the day. He didn't develop angel wing but he was the only one of the bunch that never learned to fly. He was big and slow moving but could fight well and ended up as boss gander of that flock. I locked him away during mating season as I didn't want any more like him.
I know enough about geese to know that to generalize is dangerous since there is usually an exception to any general rule. Make fun if you want to, sometimes I am as silly as a goose but sometimes I flame like a dragon ( believe it or not, I am trying to cut down on the flaming) ~goosedragon

 

[CityChicker]

Well, I have not seen any compelling *scientific* study either way to indicate whether AW is dietary or genetic. Truthfully, I am most inclined to trust the opinion of breeders that have raised literally tens of thousands of birds. Almost universally, they seem to think it is dietary. Of course, they could be wrong and just parroting what people have always thought. I don't know.

To me though, I don't see why we would discount the potential dietary factor by saying that not all birds on the same diet develop AW. That just doesn't make sense to me personally. It is not like all people that eat ice cream become exactly 200 pounds. There are numerous other factors just with diet alone, i.e. *exactly* how much each bird eats, drinks, percentage of greens to dry food, even how much it walks around. All of these factors *might* affect whether the bird develops AW and have little to do with genetics (not that I am discounting the fact that genetics could play a part).

Anyway, I don't know one way or the other. I don't think that I could say what causes AW unless I had raised hundreds of birds on multiple diets and in very controlled and diverse environments. There are just too many potential variables.

 

[Cottage Rose]

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[Cottage Rose]

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Indeed but we can all share what our experiences have been.
Not that its scientific or will solve the problem but it may lead to some helpful ideas that people can utilize or avoid.

Unfortunately people who have raised "thousands" of birds tend to not speak publicly on forums so us nimcum-poops just have to flounder around and figure things out the hard way.

 

[CityChicker]

That's true, LOL. They obviously don't have the time on their hands that some of us do, myself included, LOL. Many have written books though and almost unanimously they say Angel wing is dietary or growth related, not genetic.

Like I said though, it could be that even raising thousands of birds doesn't necessarily make what someone says correct. We sometimes fall in a trap of doing things they way we always have even if there may be a better way (speaking in general terms).