Another Cochin color question...

[Poulets De Cajun]

I understand the lavender genetics to a degree, as I have my first generation of lavender to black crosses on the ground now. And I knew black was dominant, which is why I got black chicks when I crossed a black hen to a lavender roo.

However the red to blue thing was confusing me just a bit....

So, if what you're saying is correct, black will always show up before red?

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

I don't think so; I think it depends a great deal on the E-alleles involved, whether autosomal red is present, hidden genes present in both birds, the number of copies of gold (if any) present, ...

That said, the Chicken Calculator does say red to lav = black

 

[Krys109uk]

By & large, black is usually dominant over genes causing red pigment except in the presence of the black restricting genes on the less dominant e-alleles. Often the red/gold will leak through & there needs to be other eumelanising genes to cover gold in the hackles or maybe the back but normally speaking black will be dominant.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

I really have a problem with using the term "dominant" when talking about the relationship between different genes.

However, if I imagine a red bird, then add black to all the feathering, the black is darker and will cover the red so that you don't see it. Kind of similar to the concept of a laced black bird--it may be laced, but you'll never see the black lacing on the black feather.

I think this is what you mean?

 

[Krys109uk]

Quite so. I take your point about the use of the word "dominant". I used the word incorrectly, as a gene would not be dominant to a gene of which it is not an allele.

It is very difficult to do anything other than speak broadly. There are so many different circumstances. So many people ask "What if I cross bird of colour A with a bird of colour B"......there could be a variety of genes which could prove the exception.

With this particular cross, all things being equal, & presuming the genes are what one would expect for those colours of cochin. Some fun colours would come from crossing the offspring of the first cross & the genes segregate out.

These experimental crosses can cause trouble if people for instance have a black bird from such a cross & sell it as a black; they can inadvertantly be putting unwanted genes into someone else's breeding project. (One of my pet peeves)

 

[tellynpeep]

I assume the red gene is at a different locus from the lavender? If so, couldn't the red bird also carry a lavender gene? (Just theoretically here, not really looking at probablilities!) Add to this fray the frizzle factor, which the lavender girl may be carrying (according to the person who sold them to me.) Again, thanks for the discussion.

 

[Poulets De Cajun]

Quote:
If there was EVER a question I can't stand to read... this one is it. It's most frustrating to say the least. Breeding birds is truly NOT like mixing paint, and sadly thats the common misconception (EG: white to black to make gray).

 

[Krys109uk]

Hello Tellynpeep,

Your red cochin is red because of a combination of genes. Lavender's allele could be called 'not lavender'. The lavender gene is a global or general dilution gene. When homozygous it dilutes black to lavender & red/gold pigment to straw or yellow, depending upon the bird's other genes. A red bird can carry a lavender gene but it isn't probable. Even so lavender, when homozygous, has a different effect upon red/god pigment.

If your lavender cochin is normal feathered it is very unlikely to carry a frizzle gene because frizzle is incompletely dominant to 'not frizzle' (i.e.normal feather) , thus a frizzle gene would show. There are observed instances of frizzle modifing genes masking the frizzle gene but I don't think they're common. Most frizzle feathered bird one sees are in fact heterozygous for the frizzle feather gene because the effect of having two frizzle genes is usually so extreme the feathers tend to break & the bird tends to get rather bald.

Hope this makes sense

Good luck

 

[Krys109uk]

Sorry.....slow computer again

 

[tellynpeep]

Makes perfect sense! Thanks for the thoughtful answer. Another reason I'm not getting into breeding till I have a clue about this stuff.