Another integrating question - but in reverse

[SueAndHerZoo]

Sorry - I know there are tons of integrating posts and I've read a lot of them, but haven't found one yet that matches my situation. I have six 6 or 7 week old chicks that I've had since they were a few days old that are nicely now living outdoors. The coop and run are the Producers Pride Defender XL, 10' by 10' run but the coop is only 5' x 4'. I am adding four more chicks in a few days that the farmer says are 12-14 weeks old. Researching how to integrate older and bigger chicks in with existing younger chicks. Will the young ones be territorial since they were there first? Will the slightly older ones want to be dominant since they are larger? I could block off some of the run for the larger newbies but what would I do at night when I put the chicks into their coop and shut the door?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and suggestions. Hoping since the smaller ones are the originals they will hold their own to the larger newcomers.
Sue

 

[azygous]

It's doubtful ten chickens will be able to fit in your coop. How much roosting space is there? You would need ten feet all together. Any less, and they won't have adequate room to maneuver using their wings to hop up.

Usually larger chicks will dominate smaller ones. But the ones that were there first may demonstrate to the larger new comers that the younger ones are dominate. But seven or eight weeks isn't very long for them to gain a sense of dominance. You will need to supervise and referee until you see what the balance of power is going to be.

Let them have a barrier between them for a few days so they can become acquainted before they have direct access to one another. That will give you a hint as to which way it's likely to go when you merge them.

Hold the new comers back the first night. I hope you have some place they can sleep. Then put them at the far end of the perch in the coop the second night. It would help to erect a partition between the two groups. If you put them into the coop after dark, no one will start anything.

Integrating slowly and gradually is better than doing it all at once. Chickens are much more accepting when they can process change very gradually.

 

[SueAndHerZoo]

There are two roosting poles in the coop, 4' each, and there are trays (now covered with pine shavings) above the nesting boxes. So far, the eight I have have never gone to the roosting pole and only two have ventured up to the upper level to sleep. So far they stay huddled together on the floor of the elevated coop. I changed my plans so that I could be home all day Thursday (the day I pick up the newbies) and plan on having them in large dog crates inside the run to begin. Hopefully I'll learn rather quickly what type of interaction is going to take place and proceed from there. A friend has chickens and he says he doesn't confine his hens to the coop but instead let's them come and go and they often choose to sleep outdoor in the run? Can I let the new guys sleep outside for a few nights? I've got the area pretty much predator proof, although I know hardly anything is truly predator proof.
Sue

 

[Mrs. K]

I think that this won't be much of an issue now. I think of it as plus and minuses and you need to be close to zero.

8 younger birds -8, 6 older birds +6
8 home court advantage + 8, 6 strangers -6

Small age difference - neutral
A little tight on space - add some clutter so birds can get away from each other and out of sight of each other. Pallets, ladders, chairs, totes on their sides, large pieces of cardboard, small pieces of plywood - things that let birds disappear, or get away from each other are good to add. Add a lot.

Do have multiple feed bowls, places so that while eating at one, can't see a bird eating at another.

I would put them together and see what happens.

BUT - basically you are doubling your flock. Neither set of the birds are anywhere close to full size - so what seems to be enough space right now, is no where near enough space for those same birds this winter.

To keep 14 full size birds you need a coop that is 56 square feet, and you have 20 square feet, enough for 5 birds max. For the run, you need 140 square feet. Over crowding causes very ugly behaviors in chickens.

There are some common fallacies about space:

• They only sleep in there - the problem is the long nights of winter are coming, and they will be going to roost about 4:30 and staying there to 7:30. A long time for ugly behavior.
• Being raised together will make BFF. Nope - being raised together has almost no influence on chicken behavior
• Letting them out to free range will make up for over crowding. Chickens are not like puppies, that you can take for a walk, and then they will sleep by the fire.
• If any of these are roosters - you need more space than planned so far.

We have all suffered from chicken math, more is better. But more in too small of space is ugly. Feathers being pulled, horrible pecking of holes in each other.

You have some time, but even if you don't add the new birds, you are still over max. Maybe you have plans for a bigger coop, you will need one.

Mrs K

 

[SueAndHerZoo]

I think that this won't be much of an issue now. I think of it as plus and minuses and you need to be close to zero.

8 younger birds -8, 6 older birds +6
8 home court advantage + 8, 6 strangers -6

Small age difference - neutral
A little tight on space - add some clutter so birds can get away from each other and out of sight of each other. Pallets, ladders, chairs, totes on their sides, large pieces of cardboard, small pieces of plywood - things that let birds disappear, or get away from each other are good to add. Add a lot.

Do have multiple feed bowls, places so that while eating at one, can't see a bird eating at another.

I would put them together and see what happens.

BUT - basically you are doubling your flock. Neither set of the birds are anywhere close to full size - so what seems to be enough space right now, is no where near enough space for those same birds this winter.

To keep 14 full size birds you need a coop that is 56 square feet, and you have 20 square feet, enough for 5 birds max. For the run, you need 140 square feet. Over crowding causes very ugly behaviors in chickens.

There are some common fallacies about space:

• They only sleep in there - the problem is the long nights of winter are coming, and they will be going to roost about 4:30 and staying there to 7:30. A long time for ugly behavior.
• Being raised together will make BFF. Nope - being raised together has almost no influence on chicken behavior
• Letting them out to free range will make up for over crowding. Chickens are not like puppies, that you can take for a walk, and then they will sleep by the fire.
• If any of these are roosters - you need more space than planned so far.

We have all suffered from chicken math, more is better. But more in too small of space is ugly. Feathers being pulled, horrible pecking of holes in each other.

You have some time, but even if you don't add the new birds, you are still over max. Maybe you have plans for a bigger coop, you will need one.

Mrs K

Thank you for the encouraging post. The math is a little off but I think the end result still comes out a good number. I have eight chicks right now, but two turned out to be roosters so they are going to a farm on Thursday. So I'll have six, 7 week old chicks. While at the farm I'm going to purchase 4 more (12 weeks old) so my total at the end of the day will be 10 chicks.

I'm aleady mapping out the yard and planning where to move the run so that I can add a bigger coop. But in the meantime, what if I have two coops in the run? Will the chicks utilize both or do they always want to be in the same coop together? The existing coop is on the outside of the 10' x 10' run so there is room in the run for me to add a small coop for any that choose to be away from the crowd.
Sue

 

[Mrs. K]

Good grief - where did I get 8 more chicks! haha

Pull and add the chicks at the same time - kind discombobulates everyone.

I would still expect the 6 + 4 to work. There is just not that big of difference in their age. A lot of clutter will help.

If they are full size birds, come the fall, by October, the older group should be full size, and the younger group close to full size.

So 4 feet for each bird in the coop - need 40 square feet. I have a 6 x 8 foot coop, that I can get 12 full grown birds in, sometimes, depending on their personalities, 13, better flock at around 10. A lot depends on the personality of your birds. It is amazing how 1-3 too many birds can just wreck havoc with the peace in the flock.

I would set up the second coop and open it, and come mid September, I might just go in after dark, and put 3-4 birds in the other coop. If you do it getting the same birds, for a couple of nights, they might just figure it out. Thing is, with birds you don't really know how it will go. Sometimes, a couple will just go to the new coop. Sometimes some nights they sleep here, other nights they sleep there.

Always solve for peace in the flock. It may come down to it, that you will need to removed some birds from the flock to get that peace. Trust me, it is worth it. However, I keep a flock, and only one or two individual birds. The others, come, have a good life, and sometimes need to be moved on. Laying hens are easy to sell, and then you have room to add chicks.

Adding chicks, and subtracting hens keeps your flock younger and healthier. Not all birds will work out for you, and some will not fit in your coop, no matter what you do. Solve for peace in the flock.

Mrs K

 

[SueAndHerZoo]

I really love your down-to-earth, honest and realistic approach to chicken keeping. I agree that having less chickens, but happy, healthy and comfortable ones, is better than having an overcrowded coop and run in which no one is happy, including me. Happy animals make for happy pet owners, so I will always do what's best for the animals, even at my own expense or heartbreak. Being so involved in animal rescue causes me a lot of heartbreak and tears, but it's also very rewarding. I am afraid that I would have a tough time giving up any chicks that I've had for a few months due to emotional attachment, but if a few of them are genuinely jerks and causing issues, maybe it wouldn't hurt so much to re-home them. All for the greater good, right?

I'll start looking for another coop just so I have it, regardless of whether I need it for this crew or not. And don't feel bad about getting the original numbers wrong.... it's chicken math, right? You always end up with more than you originally expected to!
Sue

 

[BigBlueHen53]

Nobody has mentioned quarantining.

You are going to take four new chicks, 12-14 weeks old and put them in with your existing chicks, straight from another farm, without separating them for several weeks to make sure the new chicks are healthy and don't have lice or mites first that could contaminate your chicks and/or coop?

I wouldn't.

 

[SueAndHerZoo]

Nobody has mentioned quarantining.

You are going to take four new chicks, 12-14 weeks old and put them in with your existing chicks, straight from another farm, without separating them for several weeks to make sure the new chicks are healthy and don't have lice or mites first that could contaminate your chicks and/or coop?

I wouldn't.

I was just starting to search and read about what dangers there are with incorporating without quarantine. I always quarantine new saltwater fish before adding them to the tank which is what made me think about it when I was cleaning my tank earlier.

What would I be looking for? Being new to chickens, I'm not sure I could tell a healthy from an unhealthy chicken. How do I check for mites or lice? Is there some way I should treat the new kids before incorporating them? When we get new dogs into the shelter we de-worm them, de-flea them, and give them all their vaccinations. Is there similar things I should do to new chicks?
Sue

 

[aart]

What would I be looking for?

biological/medical quarantine:

BYC Medical Quarantine Article