Another question about incubator temps. Eggs are in

[Penturner]

The thinking that the egg will reach the same temperature as the air in the incubator is not correct. at least in regard to successfully hatching an egg.. Because it will eventually do so but not until the egg completely dries up. all the time a viable egg is roasting away it is loosing moisture. this moisture loss will carry away heat with it, actually a surprising amount of heat. this is why you get so cold when you climb out of a swimming pool. your egg in effect is in a constant just climbed out of the pool condition although a mild one. still it will have an significant cooling effect. Thinking of this made me wonder if your wiggler is wet or moist on the outside and cooling more rapidly than normal or something. truth is trying to hold a temp to 1/10th of a degree is not easy at best. trying to hold something to even a single degree is not all that easy. add to this that an egg does not necessarily take or release heat as readily as other objects do. metal for example will take heat readily, that is why it will both get hot quickly. it will also release heat quickly this is why it burns so badly. it will also let heat pass through it quickly. Styrofoam on the other hand will not you can have one side of Styrofoam be 100 degrees but not be able to feel any warmth on the other side even if it is only an inch thick. I am thinking the egg or at least the shell is more like Styrofoam than metal. This making it harder to get heat into it but the egg. the combination would very likely make it impossible for an eg that still contains moisture to ever match the temperature of the air around it. this would in part explain why an egg in 102 degree still air is only 99.5 degrees.
Now if you are measuring the temperature inside an egg. what temperature does it need to be? I know people say 99.5 but they also are assuming the inside of the egg is going to match the outside forced air incubator temperature. in fact forced air would tend to increase the loss of moisture from an egg and keep it even cooler, maybe.
My basic thinking surrounds the idea that an egg is not an in animate lifeless object that is unable to respond to it's environment. quite the opposite is true. it does have some ability to respond and compensate regardless of how subtle that response may be. this thinking would also explain the importance of humidity control with the effect has on the egg and how fast it looses moisture.

 

[Intheswamp]

Quote:
It's interesting that you found so little difference in temps.

It is definitely not necessary to have a wiggler in the incubator but it does give a good idea of egg temp should you have to remove the top for an extended time for some reason (exploded egg or something) or in the event of a power outage or such events. But there are *many* people that have never used one....period.

One thing that you might want to do is get a digital medical thermometer (one you check for a fever with). Take a small cup of water (a medicine dose cup works well ) and place it in the incubator. Let it sit there for 5-6 hours to be sure it has stabilized at the ambient temperature of the incubator. After the time has elapsed look into the incubator through the window and write down the temperature(s) of the thermometer(s) that you're going to be using in the incubator. Then quickly open the incubator and with the medical thermometer test the temperature of the water that's in the cup. Compare this temperature with temps from the other thermometer(s). This should give you an idea of the accuracy of the digital units. I mentioned this to one person and they eventually made a hole in the lower half of their incubator so that they could slide the medical in and out of the water wiggler...precision thermometer on the cheap.

If you want a precision thermometer that is dependable (other than a medical one) then the Brinsea Spot Check / Egg Temp thermometer is the most often recommended one. Best deal that I have found is at www.cutlersupply.com. To help lessen the cost of shipping you might purchase a few other items that they have available and that you were needing to buy anyhow. Just a thought.

As long as you can get your temperature to hover in a tight range around 99.5* I think you're doing ok.

Ed

 

[Intheswamp]

Quote:
Hmm, I've never heard this, but there again there is plenty that I haven't heard. I understand evaporative cooling but I'm not so sure how that works in an incubation setting.

You might want to check this thread out and read the link that is associated with it...interesting food for thought. Should TEMP be "lowered a bit" late in incubation?

Best wishes,
Ed

 

[Penturner]

Ed, keep in mind I am speaking from a train of thought that is absolute also. nothing is absolute when it comes to eggs and there are far more variables coming into play. I would be surprised that the difference is even half a degree but there "Should" be some difference. Heat is an energy just like electricity or magnetism. those are two types of energy that people would most likely say. idonno it is mysterious to me but it works. Energy tends to act that way. it is not even and smooth but sort of wavers around and mingles in layers and that sort of thing. Temperature control when hatching eggs is not critical to an exact degree. from what I can tell it is perfectly fine within a 4 degree range without much danger of any harm to the eggs. and variable for at least short periods over a 10 degree range or more. more lower than higher though as there is a temp that will outright kill the embryo. there is no way a hen that has eggs partially covered. is on a relatively drafty nest and will get up and go eat even for a short time keeps eggs any where near the steady exact tenth of a degree that we shoot for in an incubator.
As for the wiggler and it's purpose. i see it not as much a tool to set the incubator temperature as one to have a fair idea about how fluctuations are really effecting the egg. It's real value will be recognized when you notice the temp in the incubator dipped to 88 degrees but the wiggler is showing the egg should still be at 95 degrees. In short use the right tool for the job you are trying to do. if you are setting the air temperature then measure the temperature of the air.

 

[patandchickens]

One very simple possibility is that if the non-wiggler thermometer is sitting near to, and in direct light from, the lightbulb or heating element, it will read higher when the lightbulb or element is on. (I don't know if this was actually the case in your situation of course).

Also, if you have a LOT of eggs in there and the fan circulation cannot get underneath them easily, they certainly COULD be cooler than the air temp at the top of the eggs.

I keep reading posts where people say that you need to base the temp of the incubator by the temp inside the water wiggler or fake egg. I just can't seem to get my brain to really accept that. All the directions and articles that I read about temps say still-air 101.5 measured on top of the eggs and forced air at 99.5 measured anywhere in the incubator. And then they say that the temp inside the egg will be the avaerage of what ever the temps are inside you incubator. No where can I find anything that suggest that you need to monitor the inside temp of the egg.

Nobody here says you HAVE to monitor the inside temp of the egg; just that it can be useful. If you don't want to, don't

Older incubating texts do not talk about doing it because the technology (remote probes) was not readily available til a couple decades ago.

Here is the thing: there are a lot of ways to do it; what matters is that you find ONE way of doing it that WORKS for you. Rather than trying to use everyone elses' methods all at once, I would highly recommend picking ONE approach and then doing several hatches until you find the combination of temperatures and humidities that produce good hatches for your particular circumstances. And then stick with that

Good luck, have fun,

Pat​

 

[Intheswamp]

Quote:
penturner, in a forced-air incubator, a 2 degree swing downward would have the eggs incubating at around 97.5F...most educational and industrial websites dealing with poultry science will say that incubation at that temperature will cause a late hatch with a somewhat high possibility of health problems with the chicks. I think that even as backyard chicken growers that we should be able to keep our incubator temperatures within a tighter range than 4 degrees.

I'm not so sure about the egg cooling from evaporation during incubation (the "getting out of the pool" scenario mentioned in your earlier message). Being a living creature within the shell, the embryo is "burning" energy as it developes (using the food source of the yolk) and, to the best of my knowledge this creates heat. The evaporation accounts for something like 14-15% of the weight loss during incubation...the rest of the liquid portion developes into bones, feathers, beaks, tissue, etc.,...all in 21 days (if the temps are correct). A good bit of energy is "burned" during this rapid developement.

I agree on several points you made, especially the purpose of a wiggler (even if it's not necessary to use one).

But, I'm just a newbie with my own thoughts and no education and shouldn't even be talking about something I know little about.

As for absolutes...I know only One.

Best regards,
Ed

 

[babsbag]

Well I am glad I started a thread with many ideas. That makes it all more interesting. Keep it coming.

The one thing I know for sure is that my hens won't go broody, darn. They seem to have this temp thing under control.

I read an intersting, all be it very scientific, article last night about the surface temp of the egg shell during incubation. Since you can't get the internal temp of the egg without breaking it, there is no way to know what is really go on in there. And if you do break it and measure it quickly you will never know if that would be a successful temp as your egg is a goner.

If anyone else wants to read it...warning, it is pretty dry.

http://ps.fass.org/cgi/reprint/84/6/914.pdf

So that being said, they did an experiment on the temp of the egg shell. In a VERY quick summary, they said that the external temp of the shell being 100 throughout the hatch yielded the highest and healthiest hatches. So now, I would like to see if one of those stick on thermometers like you use for fish tanks would work on an egg shell. I will have to go and look for one.

I bought another cheap digital therm that the pet store reccommended. The guy uses one in his chameleon cage and says that it is spot on accurate. I can hardly wait until I get home to find out.

One thing that I have been doing when I am home is using a cooking thermometer that has a remote to it that I can set an alarm on. So at night when I go to bed I set the alarm to go off at 102, put the remote on my nightstand and sleep away knowing at least if the temp goes up I will get woken up. Unfortunately that doesn't work when I am at work. For that time I just cross my fingers.

I haven't really had any temp spikes, but I think I am running it a little low. When I get home tonight I am going to raise it a smidge and see if I can get it to a steady 100, air temp.

 

[badbaty]

i know this is an old thread but i have an idea that i dont think was expressed. the temp in the wiggler can never real ever get to the temp of the air for the simple fact the the time frame the it take to heat air is less the the time it takes to heat water if the thermostat is set to 99.5 by the time the air temp gets to 99.5 degrees the water may be at say 2 degrees less then off goes the heat then the air and the water starts to cool then the thermostat kicks the heat on at 97 or so the wiggler temp may be slightly higher . now i have found this thread while looking for the temp to go by and i dont think i am any closer to an answer then i started out but i think i and going to do the Ole timer trail and error try. one other thing the better the thermostat the closer the temps will be between the air and wiggler temp if the thermostat is set 99.5 and and it turns on at 985 that is 1 degree then the wiggler should stay between 99 and 99.5 in theory sorry for bring up old stuff

 

[Nmarine1057]

My wiggler temp is at 102.7 and air temp is at 100 I think i need a real wiggler mine is home made and doesnt seem to be working very well, by the way im using an LG still air incubator