Anyone have a chick pip on the wrong end and survive? Say prayers for my baby!

Discussion in 'Incubating & Hatching Eggs' started by dolly85, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. dolly85

    dolly85 Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I put my chicks into lockdown yesterday on day 17 and I have a pip today day 18 (almost 19). I'm worried because normally they don't hatch this early, and this guy pipped on the WRONG end! Apparently he didn't read the instruction manuel on hatching. Its a funny shaped pullet egg that I had dyed last week and you have to inject the dye on the small end opposite the air sac. So of course I had candled the egg and put the dye in the appropriate spot. So I know its the wrong end because I can clearly see the small dot of cement I had used to cover up the injection hole right above his little pip. I just heard him peeping so he is alive at this point. I've incubated lots of chicks and this is a first that I am aware of. I am wondering what the mortality rate is for a chick pipped on the wrong end and if they are more successful if an area is cleared away so he can breath instead of drown. I'll be gone from 5am to 4pm tomorrow for work and I'm so thinking I should call in sick. My husband will be home but he isn't good for anything but checking the temp. Arrrggghhh.


    It isn't the greatest picture but the pip is right by the white and camo thermometer where the line of green dye ends. It had stained my fingers and got on the shell.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. CelticOaksFarm

    CelticOaksFarm Family owned, family run

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    yep had multiple ducklings pip wrong end and live, all grown now and digging muddy holes
     
  3. Sally Sunshine

    Sally Sunshine Cattywampus Angel <straightens Halo> Premium Member

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    I had one as well, but I helped it out..... Did you CelticOF?
     
  4. dolly85

    dolly85 Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Thanks so much for the replies! I've been "hands off" and he has made *some* progress though not as much as I would like. These colored babies are special to the kids and I because they are from a favorite hen. [​IMG] They assisted with the whole process and are as on edge watching them hatch as I am.

    Sally- How long did you wait before helping? Its been 24 hours with our little guy and not as much progress as I would like to see in this length of time.


    Edited to add a picture. The rest of the surrounding eggs have pipped and are doing well.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  5. Pele

    Pele Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Actually, if he's externally pipped, the danger period is mostly over. Pipping on the wrong end carries the highest risk for the chick in that the air cell is supposed to keep him supplied with oxygen while he works on getting the external pip done. If he doesn't get that air supply (ie pipped the wrong end), he could suffocate before accessing the air outside.

    Since he's accomplished the external pip, that danger has passed, and he's breathing fresh air. He may be weakened by the oxygen deprivation though, keep an eye on the little guy.
     
  6. dolly85

    dolly85 Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Well its been 36 hours and no progress. I took the little guy out and he really is packed into that small end and I don't think he has room to rotate. His peeping isn't as strong so before I lost him I decided to give him a little help on the zipping. I picked in a circle around his shell and moistened the membrane.
    2 of the other eggs have already hatched and one is zipped ready to come out any minute! They are doing well, I just feel bad this little one got all mixed up on the wrong side of the egg.

    Here is the little guy. No air cell whatsoever, I feel lucky he's made it this far! He's packed into every bit of the egg, not a lot of room to rotate and zip in that small end.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. AlivianAcres

    AlivianAcres Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I'm a bit curious about the dying....was it for fun or is there a purpose?
     
    Doobly likes this.
  8. dolly85

    dolly85 Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Both. I have three kids and it was kind of an experiment for us to try to identify certain chicks from certain eggs. We totally had fun doing it and it was a success! Our little chick hatched without further assistance around 3 in the morning. I'm so glad I decided to help him out, we have a total of 9 babies this morning. [​IMG]

    I'll post pictures after I get the kids to school.
     
  9. Sally Sunshine

    Sally Sunshine Cattywampus Angel <straightens Halo> Premium Member

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    I would have done the same thing after 24hrs.... HOWEVER, I only establish a clean breathing area, and keep wetting the membrane every 2 hrs. until it had absorbed blood n stuff..... here is paste from my saved info I keep in article for hatching...... https://www.backyardchickens.com/a/hatching-eggs-101 REMINDER~ they need to absorb this takes time....a long tinme.... look at membrane pics below..... as reminder of what the membrane should look like Good luck!


    HOW THE CHICK EMERGES FROM THE SHELL http://chickscope.beckman.uiuc.edu/resources/egg_to_chick/procedures.html
    The head of the chick develops at the large end of the egg. Between the 15th and 16th days, the chick orients itself so that its head is near the air cell at the large end of the egg. Not long before the chick is ready to attempt to make its way out of the shell its neck acquires a double bend so that its beak is under its right wing and pointed toward the air cell. About the 19th day the chick thrusts its head forward. Its beak quickly breaks through the inner shell membrane, and the chick's lungs begin to function. Complete breathing by the lungs usually does not occur until the 20th day of incubation.
    Using its egg tooth (a tiny, sharp, horny projection on the end of its beak), the chick pecks at the shell thousands of times. Finally, the young bird pips its way through the shell and begins to breathe air directly from the outside. After the chick has made a hole in the shell, it stops pipping for three to eight hours and rests. During this time, it is acclimating its lungs to the outside atmosphere. After the resting stage is completed, the second stage of pipping begins.
    The chick begins to turn slowly inside the egg. As it turns, usually counter-clockwise, the cutting edge of the chick tooth continues to chip away. In two to five hours, the chick has made about three quarters of a turn inside the egg. As the chick progresses in its movement around the shell, it begins pushing on the egg cap (large end). Squirming and struggling, the chick works feverishly for about 40 minutes pushing at the cap. Finally with a vigorous shove, the chick breaks free from the shell, still wet and panting.
    When the chick is freed completely from the shell, it lies still. Its energy has been virtually exhausted, and it is extremely tired. After a rest of some few minutes, the chick begins to rise to its feet and gain coordination of its muscles. Within a few days the egg tooth, its usefulness over, will disappear.


    After 21 days of incubation, the chick finally begins its escape from the shell. The chick begins by pushing its beak through the air cell. The allantois, which has served as its lungs, begins to dry up as the chick uses its own lungs. The chick continues to push its head outward. The sharp horny structure on the upper beak (egg tooth) and the muscle on the back of the neck help cut the shell. The chick rests, changes position, and keeps cutting until its head falls free of the opened shell. It then kicks free of the bottom portion of the shell. The chick is exhausted and rests while the navel openings heal and its down dries. Gradually, it regains strength and walks. The incubation and hatching is complete. The horny cap will fall off the beak within days after the chick hatches.http://msucares.com/poultry/reproductions/poultry_chicks_embryo.html
    [​IMG]


    [FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Delayed Incubation?[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] http://newenglandbantamclub.homestead.com/delayedincubation.html
    If you hatch eggs in an incubator, particularly one without a fan, you may find the eggs don't all hatch at the same time. Normally chicken eggs take 21 days to hatch and duck eggs 28. However, you may set a batch of eggs and find some chicks seem to hatch a couple days early and other may be 2 or 3 days late. The same thing can even happen under a hen. What's happening?
    Poultry are really pretty primitive. While birds are warm blooded, they are just barely warm blooded as embryos. If heat is removed, development stops. Then, when the heat returns, development starts back up. Development begins almost immediately. Within 16 hours after incubation commences, you can already see a resemblance to chick embryo. The backbone is visible within 20 hours and the eye begins to form by 24 hours. The heart begins to form by 25 hours and begins to beat by 42 hours.
    If you leave eggs in the nest, the time hen(s) spend on the nest egg laying may warm the eggs enough to for development to start. If you then gather those eggs and set them in the incubator along with others, those eggs will have a head start and appear to hatch earlier than you had planned. The key may be whether on not the heart has begun to beat. If it has and then the egg is cooled down, the result would likely be a dead embryo.
    The other reason for a staggered hatch may be caused by different temperatures in different parts of the incubator. If temperatures are a degree or two lower from one area to another, the embryos may still develop, but at a slower rate. Sometimes these fail to hatch but other times it just takes longer. In my experience with wild wood ducks, eggs can hatch anywhere from 27 to 30 days depending upon how frequently the hen leaves the nest and how warm or cold the weather is. You might expect this not to occur under a broody hen, but if she is on a lot of eggs, some eggs may get pushed to the outside edges and not be as warm. If the eggs get randomly redistributed by the hen everything evens out, but if an egg or two get caught up in the nesting material for a day or so, they may take longer to hatch.
    If you are concerned about staggered hatches, gather eggs frequently to prevent the accidental onset of incubation, limit the number of eggs you give a hen or, if using an incubator, don't fill it from corner to corner. Set fewer eggs and cluster them in the center. If you set more eggs, rotate them around so each tends to experience all the temperature spots in the incubator. And be patient. Give eggs an extra 48 hours beyond the hatch date before you throw them out. You may be pleasantly surprised.
    H W Heusmann
    [/FONT]​


    TO ASSIST OR NOT TO ASSIST: refer AGAIN to end of https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/491013/goose-incubation-hatching-guide-completed for how to help a chick.

    The one at this link made me teary eyed.... awwww she saved the peep!


    Sites I will refer to:
    Intervention: Helping Your Chicks Hatch
    https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/9316/intervention-helping-your-chicks-hatch


    After the chick has made a hole in the shell, it stops pipping for three to eight hours and rests. During this time, it is acclimating its lungs to the outside atmosphere. After the resting stage is completed, the second stage of pipping begins....

    The chick begins to turn slowly inside the egg. As it turns, usually counter-clockwise, the cutting edge of the chick tooth continues to chip away. In two to five hours, the chick has made about three quarters of a turn inside the egg. As the chick progresses in its movement around the shell, it begins pushing on the egg cap (large end). Squirming and struggling, the chick works feverishly for about 40 minutes pushing at the cap. Finally with a vigorous shove, the chick breaks free from the shell, still wet and panting.
    When the chick is freed completely from the shell, it lies still. Its energy has been virtually exhausted, and it is extremely tired. After a rest of some few minutes, the chick begins to rise to its feet and gain coordination of its muscles. Within a few days the egg tooth, its usefulness over, will disappear. (http://chickscope.beckman.uiuc.edu/resources/egg_to_chick/procedures.html)


    see this membrane? this is close to what your looking for! thin thin veining and not so much blood!

    [​IMG]

    If you feel he may be SHRINK wrapped (only YOU know what your cells, weight, and Humidity have been) maybe you should start reading how to help a chick...... I have watched a ton of videos on youtube and its done all the time with no problems and HAS SAVED many HEALTHY chicks!! PROOF on all those videos!

    "Shrink wrap" vs. "Sticky chick"? https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/491421/shrink-wrap-vs-sticky-chick#post_6242987
    Shrink wrapped: before pipping, both inner and out membranes dry tight around the chick; caused by too little humidity throughout incubation

    Sticky chick: after pipping, the liquids dry becoming glue-like followed by concrete-like; caused by too little humidity during lockdown

    Wet sticky or Swollen: the chick is swollen with water or simply very wet and sticky; caused by too high humidity throughout incubation

    Drowning: the whitish outer membrane is dry while the clearish inner membrane is wet, binding the chick; also caused by too high humidity thoughout incubation

    *Chicks experiencing more than one of the extreme conditions can exhibit multiple issues.
    *These same issues can also occur during natural incubation, under a brooding hen.

    https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/491421/shrink-wrap-vs-sticky-chick#post_6242987


    Float Testing, Checking Egg Viability For Late Or Overdue Hatching Give Eggs A Full 24 Hrs Overdue Before Float Testing. It Works On All Bird Eggs- Period! Takes Very Little Equipment Or Time To Do And Is Easy To Perform.
    https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/383525/float-testing-checking-egg-viability-for-late-or-overdue-hatching

    Eggtopsy: What happened to my egg?
    https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/363717/eggtopsy-what-happened-to-my-egg-graphic-pictures


    check out
    Trouble Shooting Failures with Egg Incubation @ http://msucares.com/poultry/reproductions/trouble.html


    This is also a great pdf with pics: paste link in browser search:
    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=early%20emrbyo%20death%20%20incubation&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CDsQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thepoultrysite.com%2Fdownloads%2Fdownload%2F171%2F&ei=UllaUMXFHsmrygGnjoHICw&usg=AFQjCNGgYxCBYwBex31MS5w2McdnpH1zbw

    ALSO this PDF at the last pages have a chart that shows what could have happened.... http://gallus.tamu.edu/library/extpublications/b6092.pdf
    [​IMG]


    Pipped eggs that do not hatch
    If chick embryos develop to the pipping stage, or at first shell cracking at hatching, they are normally healthy enough to hatch unless some incubator adjustment prevents it from happening. The problem is usually caused by either 1) poor ventilation or 2) improper humidity.

    The air exchange requirement within an incubator is greatest during the last day of incubation. The chick embryo's oxygen requirement continually increases during development and especially when breathing using the respiratory system just before hatching. The vent openings are frequently restricted at this time in an attempt to boost incubator humidity. Instead of helping the chick hatch, the chick is suffocated from lack of ventilation. Never decrease ventilation openings at hatching in an attempt to increase humidity. Increase humidity by other methods. If any vent adjustments are made, they should be opened more.

    Another reason for mortality during hatching is improper humidity adjustment. The deaths can be produced from too much humidity during the entire incubation period or from too little humidity during the hatching period.

    The desired egg weight loss during incubation caused by water evaporation is about 12 percent. If humidity during incubation is kept too high, adequate water evaporation from the egg is prevented. The chick can drown in the water remaining in the shell at hatching. A dried coating around the chick's nostrils and beak indicates that drowning was likely. Attention to maintaining proper incubation humidity during incubation will reduce the potential for this problem at hatching time.
    If the humidity is allowed to decrease after the chick pips the shell, the membranes within the shell can dry-out and stick to the chick. This prevents the chick from turning inside the shell and stops the hatching process. The chick eventually dies. If the membranes around the shell opening appear dried and shrunken, the cause is probably low humidity during hatching. This condition can occur quickly (within 1 or 2 minutes) when the incubator is opened to remove or assist other chicks that are hatching. When hatching begins and proper incubator conditions are attained, the incubator should never be opened until after all chicks are hatched and ready for placement in the brooder. http://msucares.com/poultry/reproductions/poultry_pipped.html



    https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/458759/how-to-tell-if-a-chick-drowns Per Gypsy: Chicks dying during incubation because of excess humidity is NOT the same thing as chicks drowning. It's a very badly misused term. An embryo can fail to develop and die at any stage of the incubation. And excess humidity can be the cause of the embryo dying. But a chick can only drown AFTER it has pipped internally into the air cell and started trying to breathe air. If there is excess fluid in the egg at this time, the chick can inhale it and drown. But before it pips into the air sac, it isn't breathing air, so how could it drown?

    So a chick that has drowned will have pipped internally into the air cell. It might also have pipped the shell. If you're doing carton hatching I think it would be quite easy to see. Break a small hole through the shell into the air cell and have a look. If it has broken through to the air cell then drowning is a possibility. Tip the egg up and see if any fluid drips out. At this stage of development and hatching, there should be almost no liquid left in the egg so if fluid drips out, the chick most likely did drown. I think a chick that drowned could have either an unabsorbed yolk sac or an almost totally absorbed one, depending on whether it drowned immediately after breaking through to the air sac, or after 12 hours of resting and absorbing the yolk. That is definitely possible, depending on the positioning of the egg. Also even with lots of fluid in the egg, the chick might be lucky and not drown. If it manages to keep its beak above the fluid, it can still hatch okay.

    A chick that hasn't pipped internally into the air cell has NOT drowned. It may have died during incubation due to excess humidity conditions, but technically, it has not drowned. So do the same thing and have a look in the egg. If the chick looks almost fully developed but it hasn't broken through to the air sac, break the egg open into a bowl and see if it looks like there is a lot of excess fluid. The more fully developed the chick is, the less fluid there should be.
     
  10. Sally Sunshine

    Sally Sunshine Cattywampus Angel <straightens Halo> Premium Member

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    What a great idea to use for hatching too!!! I use it to determain who and who isnt laying! This is how I do it... you?

    EASY way to tell who is laying & its a very tried and true method anyone can do... Get some food coloring, NOT RED!!!!!, and an eye dropper with a touch ( (TBSP)of mineral oil Insert this into the hens vent very gently and only about an 1/4 in. Squeeze the eye dropper till empty. The next egg the hen lays will have this color on the shell. Use one color per bird, for 3 consecutive days. Whites are easier to see, but can be done with brown eggs also, green, blue & purple are easiest to see.
     

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