Are blue & green eggs Kosher?

[Lauravonsmurf]

I like to learn, too. Please show me where in the Bible it says God does not approve of 5-toed chickens. I have never seen that!

Very basic info on this.

Deuteronomy 14:11-18

11 "All clean birds you may eat.
12 "But these you shall not eat: the eagle, the vulture, the buzzard,
13 "the red kite, the falcon, and the kite after their kinds;
14 "every raven after its kind;
15 "the ostrich, the short–eared owl, the seagull, and the hawk after their kinds;
16 "the little owl, the screech owl, the white owl,
17 "the jackdaw, the carrion vulture, the fisher owl,
18 "the stork, the heron after its kind, and the hoopoe and the bat.

(See also Leviticus chapter 11 for similar wording.)

Clean birds may be eaten (verses 11) -- but these are only indirectly defined by listing unclean birds that must not be eaten (verses 12-18).

From this list of unclean birds, six characteristics have been identified as separating the clean birds from the unclean birds:

• a clean bird has a craw or crop
• a clean bird has a gizzard with a double lining which can be easily separated;
• a clean bird is not a bird of prey
• a clean bird does not devour food while flying
• a clean bird's hind toe and middle front toe are both elongated
• when a clean bird stands on a perch, it spreads its toes so that three front ones are on one side of the perch and the hind toe on the opposite side.

All unclean birds lack at least one of these six characteristics.

Note the last trait under Jewish religious law tradition clearly means your bird dinner must have three toes in front add the toe in the back and then you have 4 toes in total, so this is probably why 5 toed birds would be suspect or disqualified for human consumption.

There are rules specifically for which water fowl can be consumed or not as well.

Animals must pass an inspection for being free of disease, injury, blemishes that would disqualify them for consumption. There are other texts not part of the Bible but that reference the two Bible books in question that help define what is “clean”. They must be slaughtered a very specific way as well and then prepared to specific rules too.

I am no expert on this...

I have been poking around and more than one Kosher certification organization (there is a bunch out there) are being cautious about all the chicken controversies... one fairly large one at the end of their article about the whole Kosher Chicken meat bird debate straight up declined to declare chicken breeds more or less Kosher or even issues a list, they discussed the terminology being used and a lot of the original controversy was not about egg color or even toes, but revolves around modern breeding practices of modern meat birds that got people even worried about is this chicken Kosher or not. It’s sort of like pushing a domino over and watching a chain reaction. Then as best I can tell the next domino to fall was about chicken behavior in reference to how to interpret grasping prey after that got resolved pro Chicken... Leghorns still Kosher. Then the next domino seems to be egg color... Citing traditionally consumed by ancient tribal ancestors as the sole determination though of Kosher creates other domino problems like Turkeys which are Kosher but none of those were running around the Middle East or ancient Europe so someone had to declare them Kosher after their introduction to European markets using the rules. This implies to me that the list of rules is probably more important when looking at some new animal or new genetic trait, but like I said I am not an expert. I suspect my failure to find a forbidden chicken breed list so far (maybe one exists) probably means a lot of folks are being cautious on these chicken debates.

Shulchan Aruch lists 3 signs are given to kosher birds: the presence of a crop, an extra finger (that‘s the rear one), and a gizzard that can be peeled. The bird must also not be a bird of prey.

 

[BigBlueHen53]

Very basic info on this.

Deuteronomy 14:11-18

11 "All clean birds you may eat.
12 "But these you shall not eat: the eagle, the vulture, the buzzard,
13 "the red kite, the falcon, and the kite after their kinds;
14 "every raven after its kind;
15 "the ostrich, the short–eared owl, the seagull, and the hawk after their kinds;
16 "the little owl, the screech owl, the white owl,
17 "the jackdaw, the carrion vulture, the fisher owl,
18 "the stork, the heron after its kind, and the hoopoe and the bat.

(See also Leviticus chapter 11 for similar wording.)

Clean birds may be eaten (verses 11) -- but these are only indirectly defined by listing unclean birds that must not be eaten (verses 12-18).

From this list of unclean birds, six characteristics have been identified as separating the clean birds from the unclean birds:

• a clean bird has a craw or crop
• a clean bird has a gizzard with a double lining which can be easily separated;
• a clean bird is not a bird of prey
• a clean bird does not devour food while flying
• a clean bird's hind toe and middle front toe are both elongated
• when a clean bird stands on a perch, it spreads its toes so that three front ones are on one side of the perch and the hind toe on the opposite side.

All unclean birds lack at least one of these six characteristics.

Note the last trait under Jewish religious law tradition clearly means your bird dinner must have three toes in front add the toe in the back and then you have 4 toes in total, so this is probably why 5 toed birds would be suspect or disqualified for human consumption.

There are rules specifically for which water fowl can be consumed or not as well.

Animals must pass an inspection for being free of disease, injury, blemishes that would disqualify them for consumption. There are other texts not part of the Bible but that reference the two Bible books in question that help define what is “clean”. They must be slaughtered a very specific way as well and then prepared to specific rules too.

I am no expert on this...

I have been poking around and more than one Kosher certification organization (there is a bunch out there) are being cautious about all the chicken controversies... one fairly large one at the end of their article about the whole Kosher Chicken meat bird debate straight up declined to declare chicken breeds more or less Kosher or even issues a list, they discussed the terminology being used and a lot of the original controversy was not about egg color or even toes, but revolves around modern breeding practices of modern meat birds that got people even worried about is this chicken Kosher or not. It’s sort of like pushing a domino over and watching a chain reaction. Then as best I can tell the next domino to fall was about chicken behavior in reference to how to interpret grasping prey after that got resolved pro Chicken... Leghorns still Kosher. Then the next domino seems to be egg color... Citing traditionally consumed by ancient tribal ancestors as the sole determination though of Kosher creates other domino problems like Turkeys which are Kosher but none of those were running around the Middle East or ancient Europe so someone had to declare them Kosher after their introduction to European markets using the rules. This implies to me that the list of rules is probably more important when looking at some new animal or new genetic trait, but like I said I am not an expert. I suspect my failure to find a forbidden chicken breed list so far (maybe one exists) probably means a lot of folks are being cautious on these chicken debates.

Shulchan Aruch lists 3 signs are given to kosher birds: the presence of a crop, an extra finger (that‘s the rear one), and a gizzard that can be peeled. The bird must also not be a bird of prey.

I see. Thank you, I appreciate your research. I had understood the first four on your list, but the one about numbers of toes was news to me. Regardless of toes, it seems to me a chicken is still a chicken and not a bird of prey. In our family and religion, we do not eat unclean meat, but I would eat a chicken regardless of its toes. Some humans have extra digits, but they are still human. Anyway, this is a fascinating study and again, I appreciate your research.

 

[Lauravonsmurf]

I see. Thank you, I appreciate your research. I had understood the first four on your list, but the one about numbers of toes was news to me. Regardless of toes, it seems to me a chicken is still a chicken and not a bird of prey. In our family and religion, we do not eat unclean meat, but I would eat a chicken regardless of its toes. Some humans have extra digits, but they are still human. Anyway, this is a fascinating study and again, I appreciate your research.

I have found trying to understand what is going on and reading the various articles all interesting and food for thought. I do think the sudden concern on "hybrid" issue seems to revolve around one Rabbi's miss use of the term concerning breeding practices of meat bird lines and his concerns over GMO technology that might be applied to Chickens. The letter he sent seems to have started a chain reaction of people questioning chicken genetics in general. The problem with this is many domestic animals are in fact accidental hybrids of closely related subspecies and species because our collective farming ancestors countless 1000s of years ago had no clue about these things other than if critter X looks like critter Y and made babies that can make more babies than they must be the same critter... even language reflects this with "common names" for plants and even animals being reapplied to different species... so I am hopeful someone will eventually come forward and say its OK... otherwise this is quickly going to spiral out of control and effect lots of traditional foods.

The general food rules and differences between how they are interpreted is interesting.

 

[BigBlueHen53]

I have found trying to understand what is going on and reading the various articles all interesting and food for thought. I do think the sudden concern on "hybrid" issue seems to revolve around one Rabbi's miss use of the term concerning breeding practices of meat bird lines and his concerns over GMO technology that might be applied to Chickens. The letter he sent seems to have started a chain reaction of people questioning chicken genetics in general. The problem with this is many domestic animals are in fact accidental hybrids of closely related subspecies and species because our collective farming ancestors countless 1000s of years ago had no clue about these things other than if critter X looks like critter Y and made babies that can make more babies than they must be the same critter... even language reflects this with "common names" for plants and even animals being reapplied to different species... so I am hopeful someone will eventually come forward and say its OK... otherwise this is quickly going to spiral out of control and effect lots of traditional foods.

The general food rules and differences between how they are interpreted is interesting.

The Bible talks about "kinds." Of animals. Sometimes I think humans nit-pick things to death. One day they'll have us counting flight feathers to see what's okay and what isn't. But I should drop out of this convo now, I'm probably too liberal.

 

[Lauravonsmurf]

I agree the Bible created big classes and was much simpler with the rules it seems.

You know people in general just got to go complicate everything, don’t matter the culture or religion... it’s a human thing.

 

[chfriedmam]

There is no set of characteristics in Jewish law that makes a bird kosher-it is entirely by mesorah, handed down knowledge. On the one hand Jewish law accepts that a non kosher bird cannot breed with a kosher one and produce chicks that will breed true and be fertile- so if they breed they could be kosher. But there is also the requirement that only birds in the handed down list be eaten.

The problem is, and this upsets me a lot as an Orthodox Jew who likes blue eggs too, that blue/green eggs are NOT the same as brown and no blue layers are historically accepted. Brown eggs can be scrubbed to beige. The color is an outer layer. Blue/green eggs the color goes through the entire shell-it is deposited at a different part of the process.

Rabbinic authorities have tried to find ways to say blue/green layers are close enough to white/brown, but there is no blue/green laying breed that has been handed down as kosher. If all Jews began eating them they might be able to say it’s kosher bc accepted by the community, but that hasn’t happened.

It’s hard for people to understand, it’s not merely a genetic or scientific discussion. And yes, I’d suggest others who live in glass houses as far as the rationality of their religious beliefs be respectful.

PS I have 1 Opal Legbar rooster and 3 hens, all genetic tested O/O, that I'm looking to rehome. . My son the rabbi looked into this for me and I wish he hadn't, bc I've invested a lot of time on these birds

 

[Chicken Soap with Nuts]

There is no set of characteristics in Jewish law that makes a bird kosher-it is entirely by mesorah, handed down knowledge. On the one hand Jewish law accepts that a non kosher bird cannot breed with a kosher one and produce chicks that will breed true and be fertile- so if they breed they could be kosher. But there is also the requirement that only birds in the handed down list be eaten.

The problem is, and this upsets me a lot as an Orthodox Jew who likes blue eggs too, that blue/green eggs are NOT the same as brown and no blue layers are historically accepted. Brown eggs can be scrubbed to beige. The color is an outer layer. Blue/green eggs the color goes through the entire shell-it is deposited at a different part of the process.

Rabbinic authorities have tried to find ways to say blue/green layers are close enough to white/brown, but there is no blue/green laying breed that has been handed down as kosher. If all Jews began eating them they might be able to say it’s kosher bc accepted by the community, but that hasn’t happened.

It’s hard for people to understand, it’s not merely a genetic or scientific discussion. And yes, I’d suggest others who live in glass houses as far as the rationality of their religious beliefs be respectful.

PS I have 1 Opal Legbar rooster and 3 hens, all genetic tested O/O, that I'm looking to rehome. . My son the rabbi looked into this for me and I wish he hadn't, bc I've invested a lot of time on these birds

It has been scientifically proven that the blue egg gene is the result of a retrovirus mutation. Birds however can have Araucana/Mapuche ancestors and not lay blue eggs. If birds descended from these birds are deemed not kosher, it would very difficult to determine which chickens have never mixed with new world derived birds which someone hypothesized may have in the past had some admixture with a non chicken bird which we have no mesora for even though it appears to have the kosher signs, yet the OU doesn’t seem to have a problem with Turkey.

 

[RennaeHanson]

I have a customer coming to buy chickens and he said he thinks blue eggs are not Kosher but I cannot find anything to support that. Anyone?

If I am in the wrong topic kindly let me know. Thanks

Apparently there are strict guide lines on what is a Kosher egg and what isn't...I was curious so I looked this up... https://www.chefsresource.com/are-chicken-eggs-kosher/

 

[Chicken Soap with Nuts]

Apparently there are strict guide lines on what is a Kosher egg and what isn't...I was curious so I looked this up... https://www.chefsresource.com/are-chicken-eggs-kosher/

kosher eggs only have to come from a kosher species; the chicken does NOT have to be slaughtered prior to eating the eggs. The only case in which this would apply is if you are eating the unlaid eggs after a chicken is slaughtered, the chicken would have to have been slaughtered properly and be declared kosher.