Are they different breeds...or just different colors?

[Tunastopper]

I think we could easly loose the BB turkeys too. The backyard poulty people cannot do anything about it. If you read down far enough in the ALBC article it says.

Industrial Stocks
Industrial stocks originate from a small portion of a standardized breed (or a cross between two or more standardized breeds) that has subsequently been selected for maximum performance of a single task in a highly controlled environment. Examples are layer chickens, broiler chickens, white broad-breasted turkeys, and most commercial swine. Almost all of our chicken and eggs, much of our pork, and a growing proportion of milk and other animal products come from industrial stocks. “Industrial” refers to the highly organized production systems under which the animals are raised, and the general term “stocks” is used because industrial animals may be breeds or crosses between breeds.
These stocks are a superb example of limited genetic variability and supreme predictability, having been defined by relatively few founders and long isolated from other breeds. Human selection plays the major role and natural selection is minimal.
Industrial stocks (such as Cornish-Rock broiler chickens) are sometimes raised by individuals, but they are seldom if ever bred by individuals. Breeding stock is instead closely held by a few multinational corporations. The selection of these sticks is very complicated, and the environment in which they functions is likewise highly developed and organized. As a result, there is little role for the individual breeder in the maintenance
or conservation of industrial stocks. This is not to say that genetic loss does not occur in industrial stocks; it does. Bloodlines may become extinct following company mergers or changes in priority. The conservation of these genetic resources however, is primarily the responsibility of the corporations, which control them.​

 

[Tunastopper]

I also thought it was interesting in the ALBC link that they thought that maintaining distinct color lines was the best way to protect genetic diversity. I don't think that is true, especially when many lines are started with just a few birds and have little introduction of new genes. A minimum viable population size is often considered to be 50 unrelated adults. Or must have a constant source of recruitment from outside the local population. Maybe some of the big hatcheries can do that, but most of the hobbyists who keep turkeys probably don't start with a genetically broad population, and don't keep enough birds of each strain/color to maintain the diversity. We end up with lots of little pools with low diversity. But most turkey hobbyists are probably more tuned to the color of the bird they want, and less tuned to the genetics of those colors and ot the diversity of heritage turkeys as a whole.

One way to turn these pools of little diversity into one pool of high diversity is to share toms. But this risks transferring diseases, and I would guess that most small farmers would rather have the low diversity that they don't think about much than risk the diseases.

What are we really protecting anyways? Isn't it more about keeping the demand for these birds high? My birds are from 4 different breeders. I know have a closed farm to keep out disease. If there was some kind of big gobal bird flu or disease that hits I hope the things I do will protect my stock. I keep more Toms than most people keep. Almost the same amount of toms as hens. I rotate them throught the year. I think that gives me a big gene pool.​

 

[Steve_of_sandspoultry]

Even though we are ALBC members and have been for awhile, the "new" ALBC has changed direction in a bad way for poultry. Last year they changed CEO's and in their Nov/Dec news letter they didn't even have a turkey write up. What does everybody think about that time of year when it comes to poultry and that shows the new focus. They are all about large animals now and I doubt sandspoultry will be renewing our membership next year.

Anyway, You don't need a large gene pool if you use selective breeding methods. In my opinion the worst thing going with heritage turkeys right now is the mix and match breeding for color, look at the Marans breed of chickens as an example. There are very few pure lines left now. Everybody wants the different colors and has no care for what they came from. If you just pen breed them you are going to run into trouble. A solid breeding program is needed. That is what preserves a breed.

Some of the old varieties aren't anything like what they used to be, at full size underweight by APA standards, and no where near what they should look like conformation wise. It isn't about the meat or pet it's all about preservation to me.


Steve

 

[Lagerdogger]

So Steve,

Are you taking the side that the heritage breeds really are distinct breeds and not just different colors of one breed of turkey? Certainly having different standard sizes as well as colors suggests that careful breeding is required to maintain the standards. But do the standards define truly separate breeds, or at one time did someone just decide that royal palms should be smaller than narragansetts?

Also, I think you might be being a little rough on the small turkey hobbyist who can't maintain a large enough flock to really do much selective breeding, and who can't do much breeding at all without inbreeding. Is it really wrong for someone to want to enjoy the variety of turkeys that are out there without needing to keep breeding stock for each kind? I agree that it doesn't do much good to buy carefully bred strains of turkey and throw them in a pen and let them breed willy nilly. At least it doesn't do much to preserve the strain. If someone likes having sleek turkeys and wants to eat them, does it do any harm to mix them if they are mostly going to be meat, anyway?

Answering my own question a little, if someone takes a pure strain bird, and mixes it up with other strains so that they have a similar looking bird with lots of hidden recessive genes, it would be bad if they then tried to pass that bird off as a pure bird for someone else's breeding program (which is kind of how this thread got started anyway).

Finally, I am glad to hear that there are breeder's out there like you who is able to keep large enough flocks so that you can aim for the standards. If no one was doing that, we would end up with a lot of random birds out there.
Good work!

 

[ourflockof4]

OK, I'm going to go against the grain here and say that in my opinion some heritage breeds more represent different breeds more so then just colors. I say that because of the different body structures and sizes involved. Each heritage breed has a certain body type and size that they typically are. Some may be able to be grouped together and called different colors of the same breed, but some are not. The royal palm is one example of what in my mind is a different breed. It has a different body structure and size then say a BR. I may just be way off base here though

The whole one turkey throwing lots of different colors/breeds is where it gets confusing though. In my opinion (whatever it's worth, lol) that is the result of a lot of the heritage turkeys being mutts. The blood lines are so mixed you don't really know what you are going to get.

Granted I really don't know that much about technical classifications for animals as far as breed/type/color ect. I mean we have different breed of chickens based on color and body type, along with horses, cattle, sheep, goats and a lot of other livestock. Are these different breed or just different colors of the same breed with different body types? To me they are different breeds, and so are turkeys.

All of this of course is the opinion of a man that admittidly has no clue what he is talking about, and has no education of breeds/colors/gene's

So take it however you may.

 

[Tunastopper]

I think some people just don't like change or progress. The new colors (moderen non standard turkeys) are great. With most animals you have folks say the animals in the past where better. Somewhere the demand changed and the animals changed too. Chihuahua are too small now. Horses are not the all around horse that they use to be and most can't do a days work. Goats have been breed down so small they have no function other than a pet. Even Fruits and Vegetables have changed. So what so bad? As long as the demand for them is there. If people want colored turkeys then why push boring colors on them or make them feel guilty for wanting them. As if they are doing something evil. You can breed color and if you want standard colors again, it not that hard to do since the standard colors are the basics for the rest of the colors. We are not really losing anything. Some colors disapeared and they have been recreated. The only color that I can think of that has disapeared in the US is the spotted turkeys (Nebraskan). I read they had blindness problems with them. I think we don't all have to want or like the same turkey.

 

[Steve_of_sandspoultry]

Also, I think you might be being a little rough on the small turkey hobbyist who can't maintain a large enough flock to really do much selective breeding, and who can't do much breeding at all without inbreeding.

You don't have to have a large flock for selective breeding, it's a matter of keeping the best of the best. If you line breed your turkeys you can go for many many years with a closed flock and not have any problems. For example, you have a small closed flock, breeder A does to (from a different source), Breeder B,C,D does also. With selective breeding there are now 5 different lines - that is genetic diversity and what saved the heritage turkey from extinction.

I have nothing against the "modern non standard turkeys". They are just not my thing.

Steve​