- May 20, 2008
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The first 25# bag of feed I get is usually medicated; after that I switch to the 50# bags of non-medicated until I go to the layer feed. Haven't had a problem with any of them over the past 3 years.
are you using a non-medicated starter?
- Thread starter midwife mama
- Start date
I haven't finished reading the thread yet, but a user states that medicated feed contains amprolium. Do find out what your local medicated feed contains, as it won't be the same everywhere. My nearest store sells feed medicated with something that I looked up a few years back. I can't remember what it was, but it was banned in the USA and Australia. They didn't sell any unmedicated chick starter, and I wasn't using anything two large developed nations had seen fit to ban, so my first chicks got layer mash - this was before I read up on the risks of the high levels of calcium in layer rations. Fortunately the chicks hadn't read up on it either, and they didn't keel over.
I would have had reservations about resistance anyway - my uncle was a vet and firmly opposed to preventative medications in feed, in terms of developing resistant strains of pathogens (bacteria aren't the only pathogens that can become resistant, by the way). I haven't looked up how your amprolium works, but as I say, this medication was not the same thing.
These days I feed my new chicks meat bird crumbles - the ones I can get locally are not medicated, although there are medicated brands of meat bird crumbles elsewhere, so check before you buy any if you are keen to avoid medication.
I also pretty quickly get the chicks onto grass, at least in the warm part of the day, and eating some soaked and cracked grains as well as their main diet of crumbles.
I think if you or your neighbours have issues with virulent strains of coccidiosis, medicated feed is indicated, but if you have no history of it, or a history of mild strains, go for developing resistance, keeping chicks off the ground in warm, wet weather, and other husbandry practices that will minimise the threat without the use of medicated feed.
I would have had reservations about resistance anyway - my uncle was a vet and firmly opposed to preventative medications in feed, in terms of developing resistant strains of pathogens (bacteria aren't the only pathogens that can become resistant, by the way). I haven't looked up how your amprolium works, but as I say, this medication was not the same thing.
These days I feed my new chicks meat bird crumbles - the ones I can get locally are not medicated, although there are medicated brands of meat bird crumbles elsewhere, so check before you buy any if you are keen to avoid medication.
I also pretty quickly get the chicks onto grass, at least in the warm part of the day, and eating some soaked and cracked grains as well as their main diet of crumbles.
I think if you or your neighbours have issues with virulent strains of coccidiosis, medicated feed is indicated, but if you have no history of it, or a history of mild strains, go for developing resistance, keeping chicks off the ground in warm, wet weather, and other husbandry practices that will minimise the threat without the use of medicated feed.
Following along with this thread, I think I've got it to a place where I feel comfortable. IF there have been chickens before (or now), putting soil in the brooder asap or letting chicks out on this soil, should help develop a natural immunity, right? That makes sense to me; however, I've never had chicks on this piece of land... I have a friend a half hour away who does; would it be helpful to bring some 'dirt' from her run and expose little chicks to THAT? I'd rather have them develop a natural immunity, rather than have them on some preventative stuff, if I can.
Does anyone think I can give mostly kitchen scraps from a 2-person home and keep 3 or 4 chicks happy, or will I have to give mostly grains, etc (store bought). I'd like to give as natural as possible, but because I'll only be getting 4 chicks, I don't want to lose any. If I had 100 or so, losing one or two would be acceptable to me, but not with such a small group to start with...
*years ago when I had layers, I did it the way 'they' said...medicated this, enhanced that and now prefer to go as organic and natural as possible.
Does anyone think I can give mostly kitchen scraps from a 2-person home and keep 3 or 4 chicks happy, or will I have to give mostly grains, etc (store bought). I'd like to give as natural as possible, but because I'll only be getting 4 chicks, I don't want to lose any. If I had 100 or so, losing one or two would be acceptable to me, but not with such a small group to start with...
*years ago when I had layers, I did it the way 'they' said...medicated this, enhanced that and now prefer to go as organic and natural as possible.
Quote:
Mature chickens show signs 3 weeks after being fed a deficient diet. In young chicks, it can appear before 2 weeks of age.
Onset is sudden in young chicks. There is anorexia and an unsteady gait. Later on, there are locomotor signs, beginning with an apparent paralysis of the flexor of the toes. The characteristic position is called "stargazing", meaning a chick "sitting on its hocks and the head in opisthotonos.
Beekissed, you're so delightfully lucid! Great post!
This is one of the things that initially bothered me about medicated feed. People are told to use a medication on their chicks from day ONE that keeps them from absorbing VITAMINS, and this is often before the chicks ever touch soil. One argument is that it isn't a high enough amount to harm them with vitamin deficiency. If that's true, then it goes to reason that it isn't enough to protect them from cocci either! At least that's where my mind goes with that. But i can't see the virtue in giving a developing chick a medication that keeps it from absorbing the very vitamins that can help it become strong and resistant to disease. It doesn't make any sense to me.
The information you shared about beriberi is new to me and makes me wonder about a lot of mysterious deaths of young chicks who are on medicated feed.
You are a wealth of excellent information.
Thank you for your post.
Onset is sudden in young chicks. There is anorexia and an unsteady gait. Later on, there are locomotor signs, beginning with an apparent paralysis of the flexor of the toes. The characteristic position is called "stargazing", meaning a chick "sitting on its hocks and the head in opisthotonos.
Thiamine derivatives and thiamine-dependent enzymes are present in all cells of the body, thus, a thiamine deficiency would seem to adversely affect all of the organ systems. However, the nervous system and the heart are particularly sensitive to thiamine deficiency, because of their high oxidative metabolism.
Thiamine deficiency can lead to severe fatigue of eyes and myriad problems including neurodegeneration, wasting and death. A lack of thiamine can be caused by malnutrition, a diet high in thiaminase-rich foods (raw freshwater fish, raw shellfish, ferns) and/or foods high in anti-thiamine factors (tea, coffee, betel nuts)[29] and by grossly impaired nutritional status associated with chronic diseases, such as alcoholism, gastrointestinal diseases, HIV-AIDS, and persistent vomiting.[30] It is thought that many people with diabetes have a deficiency of thiamine and that this may be linked to some of the complications that can occur.[31][32]
Now, before we get bogged down in the amounts needed to cause a thiamine deficiency in animals and in humans, let's consider this~imagine all the commercially raised chickens, cows and dairy producers that are fed this thiamine inhibitor in their daily feed rations to prevent coccidiosis. Humans are eating these meats and getting the collective hormones, nutrients or lack thereof and medicines that are present in the meat and nerve tissue and organs. Especially in the organs.
They say that these animals are no longer fed antibiotics....but they ARE fed Amprolium and certain soy proteins that enhance hormone secretions. These ingredients are passed on to the consumer...there has been enough research to support this and it all lists the health problems that result.
Now, I'm no alarmist, nor do I eat commercial meats, eggs or dairy, so I'm not worried at all about my own health here....but I am a little weary of people getting up on the high horse and insisting that medicated feeds do not contain antibiotics!!! like that makes a difference and should set one's mind at ease....it doesn't. It says medicated because there are medications in it. Meds, medicines, vitamin inhibitors, hormone enhancers...any way you slice it, it's not something you necessarily want added to your diet in this quiet little way.
Thiamine deficiency can lead to severe fatigue of eyes and myriad problems including neurodegeneration, wasting and death. A lack of thiamine can be caused by malnutrition, a diet high in thiaminase-rich foods (raw freshwater fish, raw shellfish, ferns) and/or foods high in anti-thiamine factors (tea, coffee, betel nuts)[29] and by grossly impaired nutritional status associated with chronic diseases, such as alcoholism, gastrointestinal diseases, HIV-AIDS, and persistent vomiting.[30] It is thought that many people with diabetes have a deficiency of thiamine and that this may be linked to some of the complications that can occur.[31][32]
Now, before we get bogged down in the amounts needed to cause a thiamine deficiency in animals and in humans, let's consider this~imagine all the commercially raised chickens, cows and dairy producers that are fed this thiamine inhibitor in their daily feed rations to prevent coccidiosis. Humans are eating these meats and getting the collective hormones, nutrients or lack thereof and medicines that are present in the meat and nerve tissue and organs. Especially in the organs.
They say that these animals are no longer fed antibiotics....but they ARE fed Amprolium and certain soy proteins that enhance hormone secretions. These ingredients are passed on to the consumer...there has been enough research to support this and it all lists the health problems that result.
Now, I'm no alarmist, nor do I eat commercial meats, eggs or dairy, so I'm not worried at all about my own health here....but I am a little weary of people getting up on the high horse and insisting that medicated feeds do not contain antibiotics!!! like that makes a difference and should set one's mind at ease....it doesn't. It says medicated because there are medications in it. Meds, medicines, vitamin inhibitors, hormone enhancers...any way you slice it, it's not something you necessarily want added to your diet in this quiet little way.
Beekissed, you're so delightfully lucid! Great post!
This is one of the things that initially bothered me about medicated feed. People are told to use a medication on their chicks from day ONE that keeps them from absorbing VITAMINS, and this is often before the chicks ever touch soil. One argument is that it isn't a high enough amount to harm them with vitamin deficiency. If that's true, then it goes to reason that it isn't enough to protect them from cocci either! At least that's where my mind goes with that. But i can't see the virtue in giving a developing chick a medication that keeps it from absorbing the very vitamins that can help it become strong and resistant to disease. It doesn't make any sense to me.
The information you shared about beriberi is new to me and makes me wonder about a lot of mysterious deaths of young chicks who are on medicated feed.
You are a wealth of excellent information.
Thank you for your post.
Quote:
When you chicks hit YOUR soil, they will still have to build immunity to whatever is there. Strains of cocci may already live in your soil. I don't have an excellent scientific explanation for this, but i know you don't have to have chickens to have cocci in your soil because there were no chickens here before i started raising them, and my chickens got cocci. If you already had chickens, i would use the poopy soil, but if you don't already have older chickens, the soil that you do have is what your chicks need to get acquainted with.
In my opinion, it is far better to keep the straight medication (Corid or another liquid amprolium product) on hand instead of feeding the medicated feed. Medicate sick chickens at the first sign of illness.
When you chicks hit YOUR soil, they will still have to build immunity to whatever is there. Strains of cocci may already live in your soil. I don't have an excellent scientific explanation for this, but i know you don't have to have chickens to have cocci in your soil because there were no chickens here before i started raising them, and my chickens got cocci. If you already had chickens, i would use the poopy soil, but if you don't already have older chickens, the soil that you do have is what your chicks need to get acquainted with.
In my opinion, it is far better to keep the straight medication (Corid or another liquid amprolium product) on hand instead of feeding the medicated feed. Medicate sick chickens at the first sign of illness.
Great discussion here. Just a note that a few feeds DO have antibiotics in them. Agway chick starter has both Amprol & Bacitracin in it. As far as I know Bacitracin is an antibiotic. Have 1 week old chicks that have had a rough start. I am feeding medicated Start & Grow as usual, but am debating where to go after this bag. Columbian Wyandottes came through really tiny & I have about 4 that are still very small. Guess I should get some sand in from the chicken yard. Can anyone tell me if the Corid that everyone gets is regularly available in feed stores & is it for livestock (as opposed to Poultry) or what? Should have some on hand for when I get through this bag of starter. Thanks.
Quote:
The Corid here is usually labeled for cattle. The important part is to get liquid Amprolium 9.6 %. Whatever it's labeled for, it will work for your chickens also.
The Corid here is usually labeled for cattle. The important part is to get liquid Amprolium 9.6 %. Whatever it's labeled for, it will work for your chickens also.
I just skimmed this thread but I have to say I'm a little disappointed some people would say the medicated feed smells toxic.
No it doesn't. And I've never seen chicks refuse it because of the medication.
I choose not to feed mine medicated feed, because most medicated feeds are necessary when chicks are raised in total confinement or really crammed together. When you have fewer birds/sq. foot than commercial poultry farms and your chicks get to range around and have more space, usually medication isn't necessary.
AND, it is absolutely a lie to say there's no antibiotics in commercial poultry feed (for large chicken farms). They call them ionophores because they're not labelled for human use, but they certainly do the same thing as "antibiotics" do. Oh yeah, and some companies even add arsenic, though they claim the levels are safe for humans. Yeah, ok.
ETA: I don't mean to sound harsh if that's how I came across. I just hate seeing people posting scare-tactics about medicated chick feed. Honestly, if the chick eats it for the first 8 weeks of life (or less, for example) the medication won't have any effects on the eggs they'll lay when they're 20 weeks or older. Broilers...I'm not sure what the recommended withdrawal time is because it really depends on what type of feed you're feeding. Some don't have a w/d time. I don't think it's right to "scare" people by saying they're doing something bad by feeding medicated feed. It's all a personal choice.
I choose not to feed mine medicated feed, because most medicated feeds are necessary when chicks are raised in total confinement or really crammed together. When you have fewer birds/sq. foot than commercial poultry farms and your chicks get to range around and have more space, usually medication isn't necessary.
AND, it is absolutely a lie to say there's no antibiotics in commercial poultry feed (for large chicken farms). They call them ionophores because they're not labelled for human use, but they certainly do the same thing as "antibiotics" do. Oh yeah, and some companies even add arsenic, though they claim the levels are safe for humans. Yeah, ok.
ETA: I don't mean to sound harsh if that's how I came across. I just hate seeing people posting scare-tactics about medicated chick feed. Honestly, if the chick eats it for the first 8 weeks of life (or less, for example) the medication won't have any effects on the eggs they'll lay when they're 20 weeks or older. Broilers...I'm not sure what the recommended withdrawal time is because it really depends on what type of feed you're feeding. Some don't have a w/d time. I don't think it's right to "scare" people by saying they're doing something bad by feeding medicated feed. It's all a personal choice.
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i feed medicated feed to all my chicks, i usually use one 50# bag and then start them on adult food. This goes for my meat chickens too, which i raise outside on grass, sun, bugs, and all that fun stuff, they eat it for 1-2 weeks then go outside and eat turkey pellets and free range. The people i personaly know who have raised chicks w/o medicated chick feed have not done well, and i think that it helps them as chicks and it is just a small amount for a short time, plus adding to the above post, my chickens really don't mind it, and it doesn't look or feel or smell any different from normal chick feed. I'm usually completely against medication and my adult birds never get medicated feed but my chicks do. Even "organic" producers use medications w/ chicks. I do no pck my birds in, and the chicks have plenty of space, i probably could get away w/ using non medicated feed, but i think my birds grow into stronger healthier non-medicated adults. Btw, i personaly would never use "organic feed", in my humble opinion its a rip off, same grain with a different label pretty much, and many large scale industrial growing practices are worse for the earth than conventional. Buying local is always better if possible, usually it isn't when it comes to chicken feed though. I would much rather buy a local product than an "organic" one, many of the small local producers were founders of the organic movement and then got pushed out when the government started setting definitions for organic, now its too expensive for small farms. Rant off, sorry.
- Apr 17, 2010
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I feed my chicks non medicated and there doing fine.
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