Arizona Chickens

[desertmarcy]

Ok I have a question for the people on here that breed to show or breed for the SOP of a breed. I am frustrated by some of the attitudes and negativity of some of the AM breeders. I wonder if all breeders are against selling stock so they can continue the breed and the interest in the breed because they are afraid the bird might be used to mix or as a project bird project. Does it really matter? If they are not showing the birds it should not matter. I understand if they are selling offspring and using the breeders name as a reference but really I have never met so many people so cliquish. Ok I am not one that vents a lot so sorry I just wondered if we do not share our genetics we can never move forward and the breed dies. We need people that are willing to breed and educate and work to maintain and improve breeds. all breeds.

ok I am done ranting.

little chiken, I'm going to throw some thoughts your way. These thoughts are not necessarily what is going on in your quest for show stock, but food for thought.

Most people who are serious about showing birds hatch out and raise a LOT of birds to pick a few to better their stock. This is a big commitment in time, energy, money, space. Some people do not want their birds going to an "unknown", someone who has not shown before. They have put their time and money into a breed and a newcomer may or may not do right by the birds they have spent so much time developing.

When you approach someone to ask about getting their stock: Do you...
Ask them if they have any "roos" or "girls" they are willing to part with? Serious breeders use the correct terminology.
Expect to get their best birds or offspring? Breeders are generally willing to part with "culls", which for them may still be plenty good birds to start out with. Don't expect to buy birds that will instantly win at a show.
Ask intelligent questions about that breeder's birds, indicating you have researched the breed and have a positive interest? I can't tell you how many times I get inquiries for a "Maran"---first clue that person hasn't researched and doesn't know the correct spelling of the breed. Ameraucana breeders are particularly sensitive about misspellings of their breed!

Have you joined the breed club of the breed you are interested in to learn more about the breed? Have you joined the APA? Bought the SOP so you can learn how to judge a good bird?

As far as using their stock for mixes or project birds, see the first thought above. If they have spent a lot of time and money developing a breed, they may only want their stock going to breeders dedicated to that breed, not to use for mixes. You can argue that shouldn't matter, I'm just saying maybe it DOES matter, to some breeders.
Yes, sharing genetics to move a breed forward is important. But there are a ton of "here today, gone tomorrow" so-called breeders. Many of those folks think they can make money raising chickens. Some of them want to make the newest and latest color, fad breeders, then once interest in that color dies, they move on to something else. Some are name droppers, yes just saying their birds are from so and so and expecting that means their birds are just like so and so's...however once YOU pick that pairing, those birds are yours. YOU made the decision which to keep, which to cull, not "so and so". Many new to the hobby just don't have what it takes to stick with a hobby that is inherently difficult or don't have the patience it takes to work year after year on one breed.

Well I got to go eat dinner. Hope this helps.

 

[a little chiken]

I've encountered the same thing when looking for the aforementioned Appenzeller Spitzhauben.

why do they act that way? shouldn't they be excited that someone is interested? I am half tempted to stay with my project birds.

 

[a little chiken]

little chiken, I'm going to throw some thoughts your way. These thoughts are not necessarily what is going on in your quest for show stock, but food for thought.

Most people who are serious about showing birds hatch out and raise a LOT of birds to pick a few to better their stock. This is a big commitment in time, energy, money, space. Some people do not want their birds going to an "unknown", someone who has not shown before. They have put their time and money into a breed and a newcomer may or may not do right by the birds they have spent so much time developing.

When you approach someone to ask about getting their stock: Do you...
Ask them if they have any "roos" or "girls" they are willing to part with? Serious breeders use the correct terminology.
Expect to get their best birds or offspring? Breeders are generally willing to part with "culls", which for them may still be plenty good birds to start out with. Don't expect to buy birds that will instantly win at a show.
Ask intelligent questions about that breeder's birds, indicating you have researched the breed and have a positive interest? I can't tell you how many times I get inquiries for a "Maran"---first clue that person hasn't researched and doesn't know the correct spelling of the breed. Ameraucana breeders are particularly sensitive about misspellings of their breed!

Have you joined the breed club of the breed you are interested in to learn more about the breed? Have you joined the APA? Bought the SOP so you can learn how to judge a good bird?

As far as using their stock for mixes or project birds, see the first thought above. If they have spent a lot of time and money developing a breed, they may only want their stock going to breeders dedicated to that breed, not to use for mixes. You can argue that shouldn't matter, I'm just saying maybe it DOES matter, to some breeders.
Yes, sharing genetics to move a breed forward is important. But there are a ton of "here today, gone tomorrow" so-called breeders. Many of those folks think they can make money raising chickens. Some of them want to make the newest and latest color, fad breeders, then once interest in that color dies, they move on to something else. Some are name droppers, yes just saying their birds are from so and so and expecting that means their birds are just like so and so's...however once YOU pick that pairing, those birds are yours. YOU made the decision which to keep, which to cull, not "so and so". Many new to the hobby just don't have what it takes to stick with a hobby that is inherently difficult or don't have the patience it takes to work year after year on one breed.

Well I got to go eat dinner. Hope this helps.

I actually am not frustrated with an individual breeder. Yes I am joining all the clubs as I can. I also planned on going on Sunday to our poultry group to possibly join. I joined a FB page that is dedicated to AM and I joined a FB page dedicated to both AM and EE. I got mad when a conversation that started with people interested in showing the AM was upset that any culled purebred AM are considered EE as well as anything mixed with an AM is an EE. they were discussing the confusion this provides to people that are interested in showing this breed. They were explaining about how if more people would show them and get the word out then maybe the hatcheries would have to change from selling EE's as AM etc. A person made a comment about breeding silkied AM and thats when breeders started going off and saying things that makes people like me that dont know but want to learn change our minds. I have had poultry all my life off and on and showed as a kid in 4-H but as an adult I really got the chicken bug and I want to get SOP AM. I have been contacting breeders to inquire and pouring over the breed standards on the Ameraucana website.
I have raised and shown professionally dairy goats so I get the breeding and showing and genetics etc. I have done it. If I sold a culled doe from a SG (supreme genetics) doe that was a finished champion lines with * milker then I would hope they would use those genetics to breed quality stock and not for a project but honestly once I sell it to them I know its their choice to use the animal as they chose. I personally would not be upset if they chose a project with that animal. I also am someone that informs the breeders I am buying from before I buy from them of my intentions.
I guess I would rather help many many people at least try to get into showing and hope they stick with it than act so discouraging that no one is interested in fighting the bureaucracy in order to join the show circuit.
I guess I just don't understand still. I do understand work and patients and the dedication it takes to breed quality show stock. I am not intending to be offensive I truly am just confused at the lack of willingness of breeders to help newcomers. I thought that was part of it?

 

[carnivore]

Good points from both of you. In my case, I like Black Jersey giants. I am interested in improving the breed, which I believe is devolving. I have no interest in showing, and no interest in selling. I just want better chickens, that measure up to the old standards. I guess if I bred some chickens that did show some improvement (or restoration of the original) I would hesitate to sell those birds to someone who was planning on crossing them with something else, or throwing them into a barnyard melting pot. True, they are the buyer's birds to use as they see fit, but if you're going to do something like that, use hatchery stock!

P.S. I am planning on going to the Poultry Club meeting on Sunday, see ya there!

 

[desertmarcy]

I actually am not frustrated with an individual breeder. Yes I am joining all the clubs as I can. I also planned on going on Sunday to our poultry group to possibly join. I joined a FB page that is dedicated to AM and I joined a FB page dedicated to both AM and EE. I got mad when a conversation that started with people interested in showing the AM was upset that any culled purebred AM are considered EE as well as anything mixed with an AM is an EE. they were discussing the confusion this provides to people that are interested in showing this breed. They were explaining about how if more people would show them and get the word out then maybe the hatcheries would have to change from selling EE's as AM etc. A person made a comment about breeding silkied AM and thats when breeders started going off and saying things that makes people like me that dont know but want to learn change our minds. I have had poultry all my life off and on and showed as a kid in 4-H but as an adult I really got the chicken bug and I want to get SOP AM. I have been contacting breeders to inquire and pouring over the breed standards on the Ameraucana website.
I have raised and shown professionally dairy goats so I get the breeding and showing and genetics etc. I have done it. If I sold a culled doe from a SG (supreme genetics) doe that was a finished champion lines with * milker then I would hope they would use those genetics to breed quality stock and not for a project but honestly once I sell it to them I know its their choice to use the animal as they chose. I personally would not be upset if they chose a project with that animal. I also am someone that informs the breeders I am buying from before I buy from them of my intentions.
I guess I would rather help many many people at least try to get into showing and hope they stick with it than act so discouraging that no one is interested in fighting the bureaucracy in order to join the show circuit.
I guess I just don't understand still. I do understand work and patients and the dedication it takes to breed quality show stock. I am not intending to be offensive I truly am just confused at the lack of willingness of breeders to help newcomers. I thought that was part of it?

I do not believe all breeders are unwilling to help newcomers. On the breeding to SOP threads on BYC that I regularly read, people have been extremely helpful in every way, also helpful in pointing people in the right direction to get good stock to start with. IDK, I don't use FB hardly at all, maybe the people frequenting the AM FB are not the right crowd for you. And I do understand how talk of breeding silkied AM got people's knickers in a twist. Of all the threads on BYC, the most helpful to me was the original Large Heritage Fowl thread by Bob Blosl. It is closed now in memory of Bob, who died last year. But you can still go back and read it and it is well worth the time. I learned so much, and Bob (and others on that thread) opened my eyes to Standard Bred chickens. And one of the things Bob emphasized over and over was that many, many breeds are in danger---we are talking the true to SOP bred birds. Rhode Island Reds from a hatchery? Dime a dozen. True Rhode Island Reds? Harder to find. Same with many of the breeds that people think of as common, because the hatcheries mass produce them and sell them as the true deal, when in fact they are nothing but. Bob would get so annoyed at people wanting to start out with some rare color, that might not even be in the accepted standard, when there were so many real heritage breeds in trouble, needing dedicated breeders. Those thoughts really stuck with me, which is why I have some of the old standard American breeds---Rhode Island Red, Barred Plymouth Rock, New Hampshire. Dime a dozen from the hatcheries but the true breed that can win at a show? Hard to find. Bob Blosl was the BEST person for helping newcomers find the breed they wanted that was bred to the SOP.

Yes the big commercial hatcheries have done a BIG disservice to the Ameraucana breed. And a culled Ameraucana pure breed? If it looks like the breed, it's an Ameraucana, just a poor one, like any cull! I think some people go a little overboard. Probably just a little jaded from having to tell the umpteenth person that their bird is an EE, not an AM.

 

[K9Dave]

How do you check if she is egg bound? I'm in Phx and won't be home until 430. She laid an egg yesterday.

Whatever happened here?

 

[a little chiken]

I do not believe all breeders are unwilling to help newcomers. On the breeding to SOP threads on BYC that I regularly read, people have been extremely helpful in every way, also helpful in pointing people in the right direction to get good stock to start with. IDK, I don't use FB hardly at all, maybe the people frequenting the AM FB are not the right crowd for you. And I do understand how talk of breeding silkied AM got people's knickers in a twist. Of all the threads on BYC, the most helpful to me was the original Large Heritage Fowl thread by Bob Blosl. It is closed now in memory of Bob, who died last year. But you can still go back and read it and it is well worth the time. I learned so much, and Bob (and others on that thread) opened my eyes to Standard Bred chickens. And one of the things Bob emphasized over and over was that many, many breeds are in danger---we are talking the true to SOP bred birds. Rhode Island Reds from a hatchery? Dime a dozen. True Rhode Island Reds? Harder to find. Same with many of the breeds that people think of as common, because the hatcheries mass produce them and sell them as the true deal, when in fact they are nothing but. Bob would get so annoyed at people wanting to start out with some rare color, that might not even be in the accepted standard, when there were so many real heritage breeds in trouble, needing dedicated breeders. Those thoughts really stuck with me, which is why I have some of the old standard American breeds---Rhode Island Red, Barred Plymouth Rock, New Hampshire. Dime a dozen from the hatcheries but the true breed that can win at a show? Hard to find. Bob Blosl was the BEST person for helping newcomers find the breed they wanted that was bred to the SOP.

Yes the big commercial hatcheries have done a BIG disservice to the Ameraucana breed. And a culled Ameraucana pure breed? If it looks like the breed, it's an Ameraucana, just a poor one, like any cull! I think some people go a little overboard. Probably just a little jaded from having to tell the umpteenth person that their bird is an EE, not an AM.

I am also on the BYC AM thread and the BYC EE thread. I will look up Bob's thread. I am surprised at how hostile people can be over their birds and their ideas. Oh well I will continue on my venture and hopefully I can find the chickens for me. I have always since I was little loved the Ameraucana and that is part of the reason I want to help breed and possibly show them. I think the standard RIR is a beautiful bird and I have thought about raising them as well. To me they are a big beautiful bird.

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
Dittos - what Marcia said!

Bob's original Heritage Large Fowl thread is a must-read for anyone getting serious about standard-bred chickens. One thing that amazes me is how many breeders will GIVE good breeding birds to people who are serious about breeding. These are often the same breeders who won't give the time of day to chicken collectors. So, how do you demonstrate you are serious about breeding? You start with the best stock you can find. You work to improve it. You fail. You regroup. You try again. You fail in a new way. You regroup again. And you keep trying. And you gradually do improve your stock. And you keep going, until you have been doing it for long enough that you can keep the birds alive and thriving through heat, floods, drought, bugs, diseases, and random predator attacks. One of Bob's major complaints was that so many people would give up on a breed after three to five years. Only a tiny percentage would still be working with the same line ten years later. Those folks are the serious breeders.

It only takes a year or two to reduce a good quality line of birds to hatchery stock level. This has been a hard lesson for me. Earlier this year I was making good progress with my javas. I had several promising young birds growing out. A couple of dicey cull decisions and one dog attack later, and I am left with a bunch of scruffy, knock-kneed, pinch-tailed, crow-headed birds. They still lay eggs and they still taste good but the remaining birds have gone a long way backwards in terms of quality. It has been a major learning experience. And I no longer have the genetic diversity in this flock to maintain this old line without crossing it with another line of the same breed. It is forcing me to re-evaluate my goals for this flock. I could easily become one of those people who flames out after 3-5 years. I hope not. I like to think I'm in it for the long haul. Time will tell.

 

[City farm]

Foxes aren't a type of k-9 : ). Closely related to cats. Go figure. Like javelina are not pigs and tomatoes aren't vegetables. Makes me crazy.

According to Wikipedia they are a type of canid so "related to domestic dogs, wolves, foxes, jackals, coyotes, and many other lesser known extant and extinct dog-like mammals." 

"The gray fox is mainly distinguished from most other canids by its grizzled upper parts, strong neck and black-tipped tail, while the skull can be easily distinguished from all other North American canids by its widely separated temporal ridges that form a U-shape. There is little sexual dimorphism, save for the females being slightly smaller than males. The gray fox ranges from 76 to 112.5 cm (29.9 to 44.3 in) in total length. The tail measures 27.5 to 44.3 cm (10.8 to 17.4 in) of that length and its hind feet measure 100 to 150 mm (3.9 to 5.9 in). The gray fox typically weighs 3.6 to 7 kg (7.9 to 15.4 lb), though exceptionally can weigh as much as 9 kg (20 lb).[SUP][12][/SUP][SUP][13][/SUP][SUP][14][/SUP] It is readily differentiated from the red fox by the lack of "black stockings" that stand out on the latter and the stripe of black hair that runs along the middle of the tail. In contrast to all Vulpes and related (Arctic and fennec) foxes, the gray fox has oval (instead of slit-like) pupils.[SUP][15][/SUP]
The gray fox's ability to climb trees is shared only with the Asian raccoon dog among canids. Its strong, hooked claws allow it to scramble up trees to escape many predators such as the domestic dog or the coyote,[SUP][16][/SUP] or to reach tree-bound or arboreal food sources. It can climb branchless, vertical trunks to heights of 18 meters and jump from branch to branch.[SUP][17][/SUP] It descends primarily by jumping from branch to branch, or by descending slowly backwards as a domestic cat would do. The gray fox is nocturnal or crepuscular and dens in hollow trees, stumps or appropriated burrows during the day. Such gray fox tree dens may be located 30 ft above the ground.[SUP][15][/SUP] Prior to European colonization of North America, the red fox was found primarily in boreal forest and the gray fox in deciduous forest, but now the red fox is dominant in most of the eastern United States since they are the more adaptable species to development and urbanization.[SUP][18][/SUP] In areas where both red and gray foxes exist, the gray fox is dominant.[SUP][19][/SUP]"
My son is a big fox fan, loves everything about them.  (Except I wonder how he would like it if one ate his favorite chicken? )  He was very happy they let the little fox go instead of killing it like one of the guys wanted to.

I think most of us are glad they let him go!! No reason to not.. So glad you posted girl..

 

[City farm]

Howdy Folks,

Yes I know it's been a while.  Things are always whirling about at high RPM...

Lil'Blue is getting a 30 year upgrade.  We finished the farm house and have prospective tenants in it.  School is out and we've left the house and cluckers to our son to look after for a few weeks.

We restarted our flock last October 23rd with thirty new peepers.  It was supposed to be 24 but my neighbor had a family tragedy and we had to take back the 6 we got for her. Through judicious sales and attrition we are now down to 14.  (Just lost a Rhode Island Red yesterday  :-(  )

Had to sell the Salmon Favrolles - those are some chattery clluckers!!!

Sold some Silver and Gold Laced Wyandottes - very skittery & we were not enjoying them as much as I had hoped

I like the Americunas eggs but none of them want anything to do with humans & one of them (of three) went broody!

Pastrymama found a local breeder of App Spitz and will be incubating up a dozen for me in mid July so I'll prolly have some roos to get rid of in a few months.

With 20+ cluckers in the yard we had an over abundance of eggs.  We put a message up on FB that they were $3 a dozen and our silly children thought that meant them as well so there was a point where there were 12 dozen eggs in the fridge!!!  That's all straightened out now and we are down to 14 chooks so hopefully we will not come home to a fridge full of eggs again. 

Hope all is well with all y'all!

Mikey

Ha, so good to hear from ya all!! . Wow that is a lot of eggs..