Arizona Chickens

[cactusrota]

That's a good question, and I would have to say that they did it out of sheer ignorance and convenience. They are the type of people who kind of look at animals as something that will serve them, and chickens aren't pets. I think it was easier and cheaper for them to feed the chickens all leftovers in order to cut down on buying actual chicken feed. They wouldn't harm the chickens intentionally, but they definitely aren't newbies either...you'd think they would have learned by now not to feed the chickens Fruity Pebbles and Doritos for dinner.
Edit to add: I just remembered, this certain neighbor would also sell her eggs to other neighbors, and if asked, she would say they were "organic" Again, I chalk it up to ignorance. She wasn't trying to lie, she really thought that since her hens laid them in her yard, that made them organic.

I think on this we probably should remember that it's what all backyard chicken keepers used to do before manufactured feed was available to the public, and I know at least around here where I live there's still alot of "oldschool" people that think what they did back then is still as good today. Ofcourse, they didn't have Fruity Pebbles and Doritos back then. They didn't have fridges for stuff to be pushed to the back and be forgotten about. But the chickens really did get everything that wasn't considered fit for humans. Pretty sure they didn't get penned up, either, though.
We have better options now, and as the stewards of those that depend on us, it's our responsibility to provide them with the better options at our disposal. But the mentality still exists that what worked then still works now. I've met quite a few people in my area that pen up their birds to protect them from predators, and feed only scratch and table scraps, and think it's normal to only get 4 eggs a day out of 14 hens. I've tried talking to them, and they just shrug their shoulders. We also have a ton of people in this area that keep horses year round in 15 x 15' pens with no shelter and standing in 2 feet of their own dung. Pretty sure they didn't do that 150 years ago.... So, there's that.

 

[igorsMistress]

I think on this we probably should remember that it's what all backyard chicken keepers used to do before manufactured feed was available to the public, and I know at least around here where I live there's still alot of "oldschool" people that think what they did back then is still as good today. Ofcourse, they didn't have Fruity Pebbles and Doritos back then. They didn't have fridges for stuff to be pushed to the back and be forgotten about. But the chickens really did get everything that wasn't considered fit for humans. Pretty sure they didn't get penned up, either, though.
We have better options now, and as the stewards of those that depend on us, it's our responsibility to provide them with the better options at our disposal. But the mentality still exists that what worked then still works now. I've met quite a few people in my area that pen up their birds to protect them from predators, and feed only scratch and table scraps, and think it's normal to only get 4 eggs a day out of 14 hens. I've tried talking to them, and they just shrug their shoulders. We also have a ton of people in this area that keep horses year round in 15 x 15' pens with no shelter and standing in 2 feet of their own dung. Pretty sure they didn't do that 150 years ago.... So, there's that.

Very well said.

 

[DesertChic]

@DesertChic well the blogger wasn't some big time producer or even small timer, bc if you cull, imo, after only 3 days of non laying you can be missing out on many eggs, like any of my girls they rested for a couple weeks or more not during molt, and they came back to laying daily eggs, so if I was to adopt that philosophy even as a person who sells eggs even privately, or whatever, if I was to use that philosophy then I would of missed out on a lot of eggs still, which is a waste, imo, for anyone needing those eggs. Also I did put in a disclaimer in my original topic question, as these opinions wouldn't apply to every chicken owner. Thanks for sharing that though I was just expressing my personal view on that specific method I don't think it's logical bc the hen could still be productive

I actually don't disagree with your opinion regarding culling so early. I merely wanted to point out an alternative perspective and suggest that there may be more to it than meets the eye.

I certainly don't automatically cull if a bird doesn't lay for three days, but if I know it's typically a high production bird I do keep a closer eye on it. Is she being bullied? Is she acting dumpy or otherwise unwell? Are there any physical injuries? Is she reacting to environmental changes? Is she going broody or preparing to molt, and if so, is it the proper time for her to be doing so? I view my chickens as my teachers as well as my food source and companions. I have some girls that from early on only laid about 3-4 eggs per week, and others that would lay every single day for over a month. A sudden three day break in laying for the former would be significantly different than for the latter, and both scenarios would tell a completely different story.

Breed is also a factor. My neighbors kept White Leghorns for years and were adamant that they had to be culled and replaced every two years because they'd stop laying from "exhaustion". Then they went out of town and asked me to look after their chickens while they were gone. The birds were closing in on the two year mark and they'd been talking about replacing them, but in their absence I changed the chicken's feed to what I feed my own flock....and started getting 6 eggs per day from 7 chickens instead of the 1-3 they were getting. Those birds lasted them another year with a simple change in feed, though have since been replaced. Now they've got three year old Rhode Island Reds that still give them 4-6 eggs per day...all because they're getting better nutrition. Heritage breeds frequently provide more eggs for years longer than those bred only for rapid production, though they may be "out layed" in their first year of two of production. Knowing your breed can tell you a lot about what's "normal" and what's an indicator of problems.

And....chicken math. If, like me, you tend to breed more birds than you should have, then you'd be amazed by the criteria you use to determine what's a cull and what's a keeper.

 

[Bobby Basham]

Breed is also a factor. My neighbors kept White Leghorns for years and were adamant that they had to be culled and replaced every two years because they'd stop laying from "exhaustion". Then they went out of town and asked me to look after their chickens while they were gone. The birds were closing in on the two year mark and they'd been talking about replacing them, but in their absence I changed the chicken's feed to what I feed my own flock....and started getting 6 eggs per day from 7 chickens instead of the 1-3 they were getting. Those birds lasted them another year with a simple change in feed, though have since been replaced. Now they've got three year old Rhode Island Reds that still give them 4-6 eggs per day...all because they're getting better nutrition. Heritage breeds frequently provide more eggs for years longer than those bred only for rapid production, though they may be "out layed" in their first year of two of production. Knowing your breed can tell you a lot about what's "normal" and what's an indicator of problems.

And....chicken math. If, like me, you tend to breed more birds than you should have, then you'd be amazed by the criteria you use to determine what's a cull and what's a keeper.

Would Heritage Breeds from hatchery stock fare as well?

 

[BlueBaby]

Wo

Would Heritage Breeds from hatchery stock fare as well?

I doubt it, because the hatchery ones are bred for higher egg production. A female is born with so many eggs, and start laying them when she matures to make the shells. When those eggs are used up, then they are done. A good heritage bird hasn't had all of that "hurry up and get those eggs laid" hatchery mentality bred into them.

 

[Bobby Basham]

I doubt it, because the hatchery ones are bred for higher egg production. A female is born with so many eggs, and start laying them when she matures to make the shells. When those eggs are used up, then they are done. A good heritage bird hasn't had all of that "hurry up and get those eggs laid" hatchery mentality bred into them.

So they have been crossed with something else to boost egg production while retaining the "look" of heritage breeds, but nowhere near SOP quality.

 

[BlueBaby]

So they have been crossed with something else to boost egg production while retaining the "look" of heritage breeds, but nowhere near SOP quality.

The hatcheries do not breed for SOP. They breed for egg production so that they can hatch as many chicks as possible to sell to people and places like Tractor Supply and other feed stores.

 

[DesertChic]

Would Heritage Breeds from hatchery stock fare as well?

As a general rule, no, because hatcheries typically cross their "heritage breeds" with Leghorns in order to increase egg production at the expense of "pure" bloodlines and basic APA standards.

I still remember the first time I went to the local poultry show and saw these huge, gorgeous heritage birds lined up on those long tables. I'd just purchased my first hatchery birds - Barred Rocks, Australorps and Silkies - but they were still chicks. As I gazed at the majestic birds on display I commented to my husband that I didn't know they could get that big, and then was instantly corrected by a breeder who informed me that my hatchery stock would NEVER get that big and beautiful. She was right. I still have several members of that first flock and they've been lovely birds, but even the most beautiful among them paled in comparison to the breeder quality heritage birds on display.

And that's why I waited four years to get hatching eggs from a breeder for my Silver Grey Dorkings. I know I could've bought chicks from a standard hatchery, but I wanted to start with stock worth working with from the start. My SGDs are still far from perfect, but I've got mentors in both Australia and England guiding me on my quest for breed improvement and they've already given me good feedback on my selected breeders.

 

[BlueBaby]

As a general rule, no, because hatcheries typically cross their "heritage breeds" with Leghorns in order to increase egg production at the expense of "pure" bloodlines and basic APA standards.

I still remember the first time I went to the local poultry show and saw these huge, gorgeous heritage birds lined up on those long tables. I'd just purchased my first hatchery birds - Barred Rocks, Australorps and Silkies - but they were still chicks. As I gazed at the majestic birds on display I commented to my husband that I didn't know they could get that big, and then was instantly corrected by a breeder who informed me that my hatchery stock would NEVER get that big and beautiful. She was right. I still have several members of that first flock and they've been lovely birds, but even the most beautiful among them paled in comparison to the breeder quality heritage birds on display.

And that's why I waited four years to get hatching eggs from a breeder for my Silver Grey Dorkings. I know I could've bought chicks from a standard hatchery, but I wanted to start with stock worth working with from the start. My SGDs are still far from perfect, but I've got mentors in both Australia and England guiding me on my quest for breed improvement and they've already given me good feedback on my selected breeders.

I agree with you! If you are going to breed for a breed and go for the SOP, then getting your chick's from a hatchery is not the way to go, and feed stores get their's from hatcheries.

 

[igorsMistress]

What is a "heritage breed" really? There's so much talk about heritage vs hatchery, but heritage breeds aren't what they used to be. Go look on any thread here and you'll see arguments over what the sop is, how it has or hasn't changed, etc. Breeders have different goals, some breed for meat and others for egg production. Even on this thread, @cactusrota and @DesertChic breed NN's and may have similar but not identical goals for their breeding projects. They may or may not care about color of the bird, color of the eggs, etc. Not that cactusrota and DesertChic are arguing over anything btw, they're just both working on NN's and may have different goals.

The RIR should typically lay 4 eggs a week and is supposed to be a dual purpose bird, so they should big enough to eat. My RIR's from a hatchery don't come close to the weight for a standard bird but they lay eggs EVERY day. I bet they don't weigh more than 5ish pounds with their feathers. Same for my Australorp. Yet my Aussie girls that I got from @BlueBaby are bigger birds now at six months than ALL of the one year olds I got from the feed store. Are they heritage birds, or are they just better quality due to breeding practices than the hatchery girls?

I haven't had the opportunity yet to track how many eggs my young Aussie girls lay, they've just started this Spring, so to test things out I'm tracking egg production from just the Aussie girls, including the hen that came from a hatchery, once I can figure out which newbie lays which egg. I'm thinking about trying the food coloring bit on their fluffy butts.

Realistically, there's no such thing as a pure bred chicken, unless you go back to the jungle fowl they came from. Heritage breed or not, they've pretty much all been crossed with something to improve the original for one reason or another.

What you want from your birds is how you should make decisions. Do you want an egg laying machine, or eggs and meat? Will you cull the girls when they don't lay, sell them off to someone who will? Do you care that with egg laying machines you may have to cull on a regular basis? How do you feel about hatcheries and what they do, hatching and selling as many chicks as they can to make a profit while killing off the roos.