Aseels

[DTchickens]

Sorry gentlemen, I have to respectfully disagree here..People always talk about Malay being so tall. Shamo are standardized at 3 pounds heavier than Malay, and they are that much more proportionally taller. Obviously strains can and will vary in size, but, an O shamo in general should be taller than a Malay. I have seen good examples of both in person, the Shamo are taller and heavier both. These are both very large chickens with some natural overlap in size, I'm just saying the giant 3' Malay are extremely rare, and giant Shamo, not nearly as rare. Most asils are quite small, sure, some huge ones are around, but, most over here are the small reza type, which are quite short. Honestly, the tallest chickens I've ever seen have been Langshans, with good shamo coming in a very close second.

Interesting, I've never heard of that perspective. Would you mind telling me what you base it off of? From personal experience and speaking with breeders, I have never seen Shamo over three feet, seen some close, but never over. Most seem to weigh between 9-11 pounds and commonly around 27-29 inches I'd say (Julia Keeling told me her birds are commonly in the 8-10 pounds range I believe). Malay were always the larger birds from what I heard, commonly in the 30-32" range weighing around 10-12 pounds.

I could be wrong, it is just what I have always heard. I could see, perhaps that Shamo can appear taller due to having such an upright carriage but I've just never seen them that large and truthfully don't know if I want to. I think getting a bird that large would cut back on what they should be as a gamecock.

On the Langshans, they are quite large as well, I had hatchery stock but I had a hen come up that I bet was larger than my Shamo hens. Brahma's get large as well, I would say owing their Malay heritage as well as some large fowl Modern Games. The interesting thing, is the American Standard of Perfection (though it may have been updated since this point as it was old, but I doubt it) called for Malays to weigh about 9 pounds as cocks and to stand about 28-29"; interesting that a bird people view as one of the largest is really held to a standard of what we could call common or even small in some circles. But even then, I don't classify the APA as an expert on gamefowl breeds.


God bless,
Daniel.

 

[gallorojo]

Daniel, my basis for this is seeing both breeds( good examples of!) in person and never seeing a Malay that was 3 feet, and never seeing a Malay that was actually larger than an O shamo. I've never seen a 3' shamo, either, lol, but they have been closer than a Malay. Granted these are both huge breeds, and I guess it depends on how you measure them...weight is nice in that regard. They are both huge and i guess could stretch up taller or hunch over shorter, how do you even measure them? I have seen O shamo i would say are maybe 30 inches, and Malay not real far behind that, but they were not the larger breed. This whole topic has just been beat to death here and elsewhere, lots of arguing, which I don't want to be seen as doing pointlessly. I would love somebody to post pics with their birds and a yardstick!! You are right that Malay are to weigh 9 pounds, according to the APA, anyway, but, O Shamo are to weigh 12 pounds!! And, sure, i have seen shamo vary hugely in size, and still look like good shamo. i've not seen enough Malay, just a few to say that the hatchery ones are way too small, and the good breeder ones are way bigger..lol. You could easily have a smaller strain of shamo that is dwarfed by a good Malay...I guess this is just going to always be an area of dispute..

 

[DTchickens]

Daniel, my basis for this is seeing both breeds( good examples of!) in person and never seeing a Malay that was 3 feet, and never seeing a Malay that was actually larger than an O shamo. I've never seen a 3' shamo, either, lol, but they have been closer than a Malay. Granted these are both huge breeds, and I guess it depends on how you measure them...weight is nice in that regard. They are both huge and i guess could stretch up taller or hunch over shorter, how do you even measure them? I have seen O shamo i would say are maybe 30 inches, and Malay not real far behind that, but they were not the larger breed. This whole topic has just been beat to death here and elsewhere, lots of arguing, which I don't want to be seen as doing pointlessly. I would love somebody to post pics with their birds and a yardstick!! You are right that Malay are to weigh 9 pounds, according to the APA, anyway, but, O Shamo are to weigh 12 pounds!! And, sure, i have seen shamo vary hugely in size, and still look like good shamo. i've not seen enough Malay, just a few to say that the hatchery ones are way too small, and the good breeder ones are way bigger..lol. You could easily have a smaller strain of shamo that is dwarfed by a good Malay...I guess this is just going to always be an area of dispute..

I see. I think issues of size isn't of great importance truthfully with games anyway. As for the lines, not sure; mine come from the Jim Zook/Will Roberts blood, supposedly they carry a little Dr. Sapaphor too (Which no one has any idea who he is). One hen I have is straight from Mr. Zook, the others are descendants from her and a cock that came from Zook as well so I suppose he would be the one to ask who Dr. Sapaphor is.

I was told by Zook he got his line from his father who obtained them from Horst Schmudde in the 1940's, since then nothing has ever been crossed into them. But truthfully, I think Horst must have added some Brazilian blood or something else to them at some point due to the crele/barred birds, and one bird I have (which is supposed to be a pure Shamo as well) even has red eyes. So really can't be for sure, but his line is supposedly some of the best except for the JK line which is in the US and Carl Brantley (which probably has the biggest Shamo I have seen).

As for measuring birds, I'm not entirely sure as I don't really care too much about it. I don't intend to show them, and am not sure if I will keep them much longer as they don't fit the bill for what I consider a game cock (and if I am to raise something called a game, they might as well fit the part ).

But, I know my Shamos to be a little under three foot, as their roost was about three foot high and they stood a little underneath it so I just approximate them at probably around 28-29 inches if I recall correctly.

I knew when I got my first Shamo he was about 22" because he stood next to a drop out pen I knew was 21" tall and he could look over it about a inch

. But not a big deal really. I guess if someone wanted to measure the height of a bird, I would get someone to hold the bird uprightly and measure feet to head.

God bless,
Daniel.

 

[gallorojo]

I've seen Mr. Zooks birds in person several times.., the shamos, that is. I've been told the exact same story regarding their origin as you, I think it's the truth. They are fantastic birds, but, like anything, they have some variabilty, some are larger than others. The crele thing is an interesting topic, I have heard some say that Japanese shamo don't come crele, and others say they do, both trusted sources from offshore. Who knows? I've also seen the shamo line from Ron Proffit, not sure where that originated, but they are very nice big, solid birds.. I'd say most of the big Zook males I've seen are something like 30 ish inches tall, more or less. Beautiful birds in any case-real specimens. but of course they will vary!!
And, yes, the size is not such an issues with games of any sort, you are right!!

 

[berserker]

Is there anybody breeding the mianwali aseel in the US ?

 

[NoZolbitty]

Sorry gentlemen, I have to respectfully disagree here..People always talk about Malay being so tall. Shamo are standardized at 3 pounds heavier than Malay, and they are that much more proportionally taller. Obviously strains can and will vary in size, but, an O shamo in general should be taller than a Malay. I have seen good examples of both in person, the Shamo are taller and heavier both. These are both very large chickens with some natural overlap in size, I'm just saying the giant 3' Malay are extremely rare, and giant Shamo, not nearly as rare. Most asils are quite small, sure, some huge ones are around, but, most over here are the small reza type, which are quite short. Honestly, the tallest chickens I've ever seen have been Langshans, with good shamo coming in a very close second.

I must admit that I know very little about these vareties od "gamebirds" I've seen them on You tube but I was unti recently, unaware they were in this country. The heighths you were disscusing sounds tall enough to intimidate some small predators (i,e cats and small dogs) To be honest, since I'm not familiar with these birds I found their appearance...,well startling. There was a video I saw about what looked like a retired fighter and "his boy" The interaction charmed me aand since them I've been sorely curious about their disposition and personbalities. Care to help me get rid of some ignorance on this matter?

 

[nelmsy]

Shamos vary, the average is around 25-32 inches tall. But the Malay is definitely the tallest, literally average height on cocks is around 34" and some have been heard of around 49". Asils vary too, you have the Reza which is no where near the tallest (called Reza- small Asil for a reason) all the way up to the Kulang which is about the height of a Shamo I think.


-Daniel

How tall are madras aseels

 

[nelmsy]

Sorry gentlemen, I have to respectfully disagree here..People always talk about Malay being so tall. Shamo are standardized at 3 pounds heavier than Malay, and they are that much more proportionally taller. Obviously strains can and will vary in size, but, an O shamo in general should be taller than a Malay. I have seen good examples of both in person, the Shamo are taller and heavier both. These are both very large chickens with some natural overlap in size, I'm just saying the giant 3' Malay are extremely rare, and giant Shamo, not nearly as rare. Most asils are quite small, sure, some huge ones are around, but, most over here are the small reza type, which are quite short. Honestly, the tallest chickens I've ever seen have been Langshans, with good shamo coming in a very close second. 

How tall are madras aseels

 

[DTchickens]

How tall are madras aseels

I was not entirely sure, so I looked it up in the book "Oriental Gamefowl by Horst Schmudde" for you; in there it says that Madras Aseel/Asil average at 23 inches in height. I am sure there would be a lot of variation though, some taller, some possibly smaller, etc.