At a loss for poopy bottoms

[dawg53]

"By practicing good flock management, you can keep your flock as strong and healthy as possible, and this will allow your chickens to develop a natural resistance toward worms. Using wormers regularly short-circuits their ability to build this natural resistance and makes your flock more dependent on the continued use of wormers."

https://blog.mcmurrayhatchery.com/2015/04/29/how-often-should-i-worm-my-chickens/

https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/safety-health/antiparasitic-resistance

Move down south where we live, you'll learn real quick how to take care of worms. BTW: Worms weaken the immune system opening the door to poultry diseases. Gotta hit them hard and fast.

 

[amama]

I think I do have good flock management, although these were battery hens given to us at 2 yrs old, so I didn't have any control over them before that. I do think free-range birds get worms easier than non-free range. Our goats have also had worms, but that is a very common theme around here where we live. I don't know anyone whose sheep or goats didn't need de-wormed a few times a year.

 

[amama]

This might need a different thread, but I was going to try and incubate/hatch some of our eggs. Would that be fine still (obviously gather eggs before I deworm) or do you think they wouldn't do well hatching?

 

[dawg53]

I think I do have good flock management, although these were battery hens given to us at 2 yrs old, so I didn't have any control over them before that. I do think free-range birds get worms easier than non-free range. Our goats have also had worms, but that is a very common theme around here where we live. I don't know anyone whose sheep or goats didn't need de-wormed a few times a year.

Birds that are penned up all the time are most likely to get worms because they are on the same soil all the time.
My birds are penned all the time. I have sand in all the pens, coops and most of the nest boxes which helps keep everything dry, and it deters insects as well as worms, especially if poop is picked/scooped up and disposed of a couple times a day.

Free range birds tend to frequently get worms; tapeworm and large roundworms are the main vectors. Capillary worms are a big problem as well, they are killers.

I've never incubated/hatched eggs; however, I know others that have hatched eggs before and after worming that have hatched eggs successfully.
Whichever you choose, let us know how it goes.

 

[amama]

"Birds that are penned up all the time are most likely to get worms because they are on the same soil all the time."

You are right; and thanks for clarifying.

One last question: do you preventatively worm new additions to your flock? We are deciding between hatching/buying chicks, or buying 1 yr layers. Obviously you quarantine for a bit, but I feel like if we get the 1 yr olds I should deworm?

Now to decide on buying a huge container of albendazole, or the smaller amount from the possibly non-legit looking website

 

[dawg53]

I worm chicks at 6 weeks old IF they are on soil. I buy chicks from reputable feed stores.
I have brought in a rooster or two on occasion and are isolated for a period of time a good distance away from my flock and I worm them right away. I inspect them closely for external parasites etc...as well.
You can also use Safeguard liquid goat wormer if you wish. I prefer Albendazole. Here's where I buy it. It has gone up in price like everything else.
https://horseprerace.com/albendazole-oral-liquid-for-horses-cattle-sheep-500ml/

 

[SourRoses]

My thinking on worming schedules comes from the horse world, where a lot of research on internal parasites has been done and the impacts are financially relevant enough that vets give practical prevention advice (expecting horses to be long lived, as well, compared to chickens).

The standard explanation is this:
All animals, especially grazers, always have some worms. They can cope with having some worms. It's impossible to eradicate worms.
But the load of worms builds over time, and when they have too much of a load, it can cause serious health problems.
From loss of nutrition, internal bleeding, and general GI upset from the foreign mass, etc.

So what they recommend is worming on a schedule that takes into account the worm life cycle. Early spring, late spring, early fall and late fall, are the most important times to worm. That's two sets of two, because you want to follow the first worming up a few weeks later (as recommended on the packaging of the specific anthelmintic).
That second round is important to handle a lot of the eggs that have hatched, and helps with cysts (dormant ones) that may have emerged.

It's recommended to use different anthelmintics when worming. That helps defeat localized parasite resistance.
On the general scale, most internal parasites are resistant enough to Ivermectin that it is no longer a relevant medication.
There is no official statement on that, because of the low grade panic in medical circles about parasite resistance. We have so few effective medications left that the future is a bit scary. They prefer that people keep using ineffective medication if it means the more powerful medications can keep working for longer in the future. Hopefully until new ones have been developed.

To understand parasite resistance, it's helpful to picture when they get exposed. When an animal is wormed, every life cycle of the parasite is exposed to the medicine. The eggs, and the dormant cysts (which have physical protection preventing their removal) are exposed to lower levels than active parasites. That gives the shielded ones a chance to adapt.
With each generation, the adaptation builds.
So this is something where a year or two of using the same medication can build permanent resistance in your localized worms.
Coming in with a different, effective, anthelmintic can kill the worms with that resistance, eliminating them from the gene pool.
However, you can never get every worm or egg. Never. Thus the low grade panic in medical circles. They are more concerned with the impact on people, of course, and animals are a pathway to that.
When a doctor, or a vet, refuses to treat without testing, it's because part of their job is to safeguard the effectiveness of medicines. Sometimes they will put that above the welfare of individual animals, with evey good intention.
As keepers who love our individual animals, we have to make decisions based on their welfare, and the impact on local conditions (aka resistance on our own property).

I feel like I've waffled on, sorry. My goal was to highlight a middle ground approach.

 

[dawg53]

My thinking on worming schedules comes from the horse world, where a lot of research on internal parasites has been done and the impacts are financially relevant enough that vets give practical prevention advice (expecting horses to be long lived, as well, compared to chickens).

The standard explanation is this:
All animals, especially grazers, always have some worms. They can cope with having some worms. It's impossible to eradicate worms.
But the load of worms builds over time, and when they have too much of a load, it can cause serious health problems.
From loss of nutrition, internal bleeding, and general GI upset from the foreign mass, etc.

So what they recommend is worming on a schedule that takes into account the worm life cycle. Early spring, late spring, early fall and late fall, are the most important times to worm. That's two sets of two, because you want to follow the first worming up a few weeks later (as recommended on the packaging of the specific anthelmintic).
That second round is important to handle a lot of the eggs that have hatched, and helps with cysts (dormant ones) that may have emerged.

It's recommended to use different anthelmintics when worming. That helps defeat localized parasite resistance.
On the general scale, most internal parasites are resistant enough to Ivermectin that it is no longer a relevant medication.
There is no official statement on that, because of the low grade panic in medical circles about parasite resistance. We have so few effective medications left that the future is a bit scary. They prefer that people keep using ineffective medication if it means the more powerful medications can keep working for longer in the future. Hopefully until new ones have been developed.

To understand parasite resistance, it's helpful to picture when they get exposed. When an animal is wormed, every life cycle of the parasite is exposed to the medicine. The eggs, and the dormant cysts (which have physical protection preventing their removal) are exposed to lower levels than active parasites. That gives the shielded ones a chance to adapt.
With each generation, the adaptation builds.
So this is something where a year or two of using the same medication can build permanent resistance in your localized worms.
Coming in with a different, effective, anthelmintic can kill the worms with that resistance, eliminating them from the gene pool.
However, you can never get every worm or egg. Never. Thus the low grade panic in medical circles. They are more concerned with the impact on people, of course, and animals are a pathway to that.
When a doctor, or a vet, refuses to treat without testing, it's because part of their job is to safeguard the effectiveness of medicines. Sometimes they will put that above the welfare of individual animals, with evey good intention.
As keepers who love our individual animals, we have to make decisions based on their welfare, and the impact on local conditions (aka resistance on our own property).

I feel like I've waffled on, sorry. My goal was to highlight a middle ground approach.

Can your dog, or your cat cope with having some worms? One worm is one worm too many. Why? Because one female large roundworm can produce 200,000 eggs a day. That's ONE worm. Unacceptable.

 

[SourRoses]

Can your dog, or your cat cope with having some worms? One worm is one worm too many. Why? Because one female large roundworm can produce 200,000 eggs a day. That's ONE worm. Unacceptable.

You can't get rid of them all. It's actually impossible, unless the animal was never infected.

When vets test for parasites, they count the number of eggs. Under a certain number is all they are looking for. That may be reported as a negative test. It's not "none", just low numbers.
In some cases they may not see eggs, but that doesn't mean the parasites are not there either, just that they were not producing eggs at the time of that bowel movement (Oh, isn't this convo lovely, LOL).

It's also worth looking up the cyst phase of certain parasites. Yuckier than I want to talk about.

Put another way:
Anthelmintics (wormers) are treatments, they are not a cure. We have no cures for parasitical infection.
The goal of treatment is to reduce the numbers, reduce the load. That is all that is possible.
And I agree with your sentiment. Every parasite should go. They are horrible things.
But they are also one of the most resilient forms of life on this planet, right up there with microbes.

We have them too, whether we know it or not, treated or not...

 

[aliris]

I just treated a flock of 6 with the goat fenbendazole (Merck 10% suspension, "Safe-Guard"). I used the 5-d regimen. Only one was symptomatic, gaping silently, but at night after I gave her medicine she made a horrible "ork" sound... stress+worms?).

When you say "early spring-late spring", @SourRoses, does now still count as "early spring" in SoCal? Are you saying even prophylactically you recommend doing another 5d round for all in "late spring" ... and what does that ("late spring") mean?

I hear you asking about dose. I confess I kinda gave up on that. So many variables and issues. I just decided from previous measurings and calculating and then everything going south anyway, just to give a +/- around 1.5ml ... so the lighter ones got a bit less, the heavier ones a bit more. And the effected one is average (though she used to be a "heavy" one) and I called her "heavier".

I hope this utterly unscientific effort isn't offensive (or worse, resistance-producing). All the effort I put into precisely calculating and measuring previously didn't seem really warranted given all the uncertainty and the prophylactic nature of some of this, etc. I don't know that there are worms, even - previously I saw them in the poop but this seems to be different. And the dosing seems to depend on what worm it actually is, and I do not know. Hence, my approximation.... But, wondering if I should do it all over again sooner than later, and when please. TY!

Tagging other wise wormers too.... @Wyorp Rock @casportpony @dawg53

ps - jury is still out on the affected one... 5d regimen is over and tail is still not 100% perky but way better and comb better. If she isn't better in a few days I'll post pictures and formally inquire. Maybe I'll pop her a calcium pill right now bc that seems to be such a cure-all....