ATTN. BREEDERS OF GAMEFOWL: Leghorn X Malay??

[GotGame]

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Do you actually think that just because I'm afraid of the term "game" and using it around here and even not sure how folks use it ... that obviously then I didn't do any research before I decided on Kraienkoppes? Who in the world would ever buy Kraienkoppes without finding out something about them? Most people, and chicken fanciers at that, have never even heard of Kraienkoppes or their pals across the border with another name. So you think that just out of the blue I decided to buy a flock of birds I'd never even heard of with a really weird name?

I bet we could drop the umlaut since this is a English language web site.

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Quite the sentence there, Chris. But large fowl breeds with gamefowl in their ancestry are predominantly not still considered gamefowl. Not everyone considers Kraienkoppe to be gamefowl. Many consider them to be utility fowl or layers. I don't know what will happen in the future, but right now there is disagreement. I have only known Kraienkoppe to be a backyard chicken until yesterday. You may claim that that is due to my ignorance, but even Christine Heinrichs, affiliated now or formerly with SPPA, puts the Kraienkoppe under the heading "dual purpose" breed. I don't think many would consider her ignorant. Besides, I have a flock of Kraienkoppes. I know how they act. I know what they do. Why discount my view of their nature? They seem like regular chickens to me with maybe a touch of more chicken-like behavior that has not been bred out of them yet.

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Well, that's for the Twentse found in the Netherlands. The Germans don't list the Old English Game. A lot of work was done on it right after WWII. Could you tell me more about that? Also why is it that you think it was the Malay instead of the Pheasant Malay that was used as a foundation bird of the Kraienkoppe?

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That's an interesting bit of trivia. Could you please give me the source on that translation? And saying that it's at Ultimate Fowl is not a reliable source. I couldn't verify it. But then Dutch isn't a language I speak.

I would also like to see the source of your information and proof that is was a pheasant malay rather than a malay that was used.

 

[GotGame]

Not that it matters much...some cant see the forest for the trees, or as my favorite uncle used to say, you can lead a donkey to water, but he is still an ass.....have fun yall...

 

[gallorojo]

Yikes, this has gotten way out of hand.

I agree to some extent with all of you...

As for the pheasant malay, it's referenced in the link I provided to more information back on page 2. Here is a bit of it.

Everyone seems to agree that the Kraienkoppe’s foundation stock was the true pheasant Malay, a light multipurpose, should I say "landrace," from Malaysia and Indonesia. I’ve spoken with Craig Russell of the S.P.P.A., who is big fan of this variety, and he tells me that having traveled in that part of the world, he’s seen birds there which very much resemble the modern Kraienkoppe. Only in Asia, the cinnamon is the more common color.

I for one am not one to argue with Craig Russell. I only went with Malay in the original discussion due to the pheasant Malay not being available here, and the fact that the OP questioned using them., and, some references do point to their use in the breeds creation.

I will stand by the fact they( Malay) could improve some aspects, like helping boost size, and helping to eliminate pea combs and white ear lobes.

Here is a bit taken from an article Craig Russell wrote about Hamburgs, Redcaps, and Pheasant fowl-

The Pheasant Malay, also known as True Malay Game, Malay Pheasant Game and other names, is probably the Malay at the bottom of the Kraienkoppe pile. It is, in fact, the "Malay" used in the creation of the Rhode Island Red. Various writers have mentioned it as an influence on the Hamburg and even as one of the breeds used in the development of the Redcaps. While the Pheasant Malay seems to have reached Britain too late to be a foundation breed for any member of this group, I can't rule out some casual crossing. There may be a belief that the round comb once popular in Redcaps was related to the walnut comb of the Pheasant Malay. The low nature of walnut or cushion combs would make this unlikely. The Pheasant Malay is certainly an elegant, stylish fowl, but the style is distinctly different from that of the Hamburg group. I suspect that the major connection is in the use of the term Pheasant, which merely denoted a light, active bird.

I think we all seem to agree it is not a good idea to recreate the Kraeinkoppe since it's already here.

As far as I can see, the whole point of contention is the issue with "game" fowl being human agressive. They are not, and they should not be-peroid. The gamefowl people resent the idea that they are man aggressive because it is so common, so wrong, and so destructive.

Aside from that, It would be GREAT if we could move past this issue. The Kraienkoppe are NOT game now, so Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion has every right to keep his/her flock that way if they wish. Details of how to move forward with breed preservation /improvement etc are always going to be contentious-however, lets look at the bright side here.

We have got some people on here NOW who are all very passionate about this great rare breed. You all had no idea the others existed or cared about the breed a few days ago. Why not come together for the good of the breed, start a thread on them, and discuss how to move forward from here. This breed needs publicity, some of good...

It also needs a way for you people to share notes, compare birds, share stock, etc. This COULD be the start of something POSITIVE. The arguing is not helping.
All out rare breeds need COOPERATION if they are going to make it.

Good luck to all with your birds!

 

[GotGame]

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Your right gall, my part in this thread is done, and I wish all who have them the best of luck.

 

[Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion]

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Fine. Check. Wilco.

However, then, if my statements about attitudes were wrong. What's the truth? I am still, then, clueless about whether or not American Game roosters have to be separated from other roosters. That's what I was told when researching Kraienkoppes, etc. I was told American Games (and others) fight to the death if kept in a coop with any other rooster and hens. I can keep Kraienkoppe roosters together in same coop with hens, with hens with chicks, with other roosters of other breeds and no hens or with hens.

What part do I have wrong about American Games? "Man fighter" was your term. Are you saying that sometimes "man fighters" are hatched, but it's not a part of the American Games genetics?

Also, there is a fellow on BYC who wants to get Kraienkoppes and then cross them and change their attitude to be more "game." So obviously, Kraienkoppes do not have a "game attitude" according to him. (I can't find his original post on it, but he's DTChickens, I think. Daniel. He uses the word Kraienkoppe in his signature, so doing a search isn't easy.) So American Games are different from Kraienkoppes in some way or other according to this fellow, an American Game breeder, whose family has been in it for years. He's the one saying that Kraienkoppes aren't "game." Well, I am, too, but I have no credibility, it would seem, and use the term incorrectly.

Yeah, I just don't get it. I give up.

 

[Chris09]

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First let me say this,
There was NO Pheasant Malay used in the breeding of the Rhode Island Red.
The breed used was a "Red" Malay or what we call today the Black Breasted Red Malay and was imported into the U.S. by Captain Richard Wheatland.

Just because they have a Pheasant Malay in their background in the distant past doesn't make them a game bird of today regardless of what some list puts them on. The Pheasant Malay was also used in making the Rhode Island Red. Who would call a RIR a game bird?

You are trying to compare a breed that was at one time bred as a Gamefowl Breed with a breed that was and is bred as a duel purpose breed.

If you don't mind me asking where did you get your Kraienköppe?

Chris​

 

[bigb-71]

I did start a thred on Kraienkoppe but nobody goes there they come to this thred and argue all i was trying to do was find as much about this breed as i could find and see if anyone else had them . i was not trying to start anything so since nobody want's to try and help me i will do it on my own . thanks

i just thought this would be a fun project to bring some of these birds back in to peoples lives so they could enjoy them as i do but i guess ill keep my birds to myself .

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[Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion]

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Here's the link, buddy.

http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGD/Hamb/HambSPPADec01.html

That's the best I can do, but I think most would consider the SPPA a reasonably reliable source. There may be other sources, but I think all folks mentioning it got the info from SPPA. Hopefully one source is going to be good enough for you as I don't really want to go back through all my files to figure out if there was another source.

The Pheasant Malay was a real chicken and distinct from the Malay. This information can be found by going to books.google.com and doing a search on Pheasant Malay. Excerpts of a few old books that describe the bird can viewed.

 

[Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion]

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Yes, yes. You are correct. I misread. Apologies all around.

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Still with the umlaut?

Of course, I mind.

 

[Gresh]

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Yes, yes. You are correct. I misread. Apologies all around.

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Still with the umlaut?

Of course, I mind.

Eggs-quisite-Eggs-cursion, I sent you a PM. Please read!