ATTN. BREEDERS OF GAMEFOWL: Leghorn X Malay??

[Gresh]

Hey, all. I have a question for gamefowl breeders out there. I once read that the extremely rare Kraienkoppe chicken (which originated in Germany) has as its primary ancestors the Leghorn and the Malay. I was wondering if it would be possible to recreate a new strain of Kraienkoppe by crossing a Leghorn with a Malay.
I have heard that walnut combs like those seen on the Malay will dominate the single combs seen on Leghorns in the offspring of a walnut x single combed chicken. Is that true? If so, than the Kraienkoppe's walnut comb would definitely be dominant.
For those of you who don't know, the Kraienkoppe is a medium/small chicken with an erect posture favoring its Malay ancestry, but with a longer back and shorter neck favoring its Leghorn ancestry. It has a relatively large tail, similar to an American Gamefowl, and it has a walnut comb and shorter beak. If you want good pics, you can Google this breed, but you can also go to IDEAL Poultry Hatchery's website for a painting (though not near as perfect as what they sell) or you can visit Feathersite and see Barry's photos. Unfortunately, I know of no serious breeder here in the USA who offers them.
I realize that Leghorns and Malays were probably not the only breeds used in the genesis of the Kraienkoppe, but they were the main breeds, so I hear. Please give me your professional opinion on this. Even if I don't get perfect Kraienkoppes, all I want to know is whether or not you guys think it would be a good start. I assume that an Old English Large Fowl Game could accurately complete the ancestry, but because the Kraienkoppe is so unfortunately rare, I know not whether the OEG was used in its production.

Blessings,

 

[MysteryChicken]

My two largest boys.

Goliath

Splash Wheaten

 

[Sic]

This thread was resurrected in 2021, I apologize for resurrecting it again, I'm posting here for information purposes to rectify argument within.
The Kraienkoppe has Pheasant Malay, there is some excellent reading on game fowl, the Malay and the Pheasant Malay variety as well as some others and also some interesting experiments that were done with common and silver pheasant and fowl hybrids in this old book I found. This may help clear things up as to the confusion, so I hope someone finds this information useful.

Snippet from Ferguson's Illustrated series on Rare and Prize Poultry ~1854

From whence came the pheasant Malay, which we prefer designating pheasant-spangled Malay for the express purpose of indicating its non-blood relationship but mere feather resemblance to the Pheasant. We firmly believe they sprang from the black Malay and golden spangled Hamburgh, with an after admixture of light brown or chocolate Malay blood. We have ourselves procured specimens bearing much resemblance by these means, with the exception of the comb, which in each case has ultimately become larger than in any pheasant-spangled Malay we have yet seen. But the after admixture of the light brown Malay, together with the breeding in and in to which they have been subjected may have reduced it to that minimum displayed as exhibited in this breed. The pheasant-spangled Malay cock's average weight is about seven pounds. The pheasant- spangled Malay hen's average weight is about five pounds. The former is of good courage, and in the latter is displayed a consequential and at times perversive spirit.


General shape. -More after the full size Game than Malay, but bearing a resemblance to each.

Head. Their countenance invariably bears strong affinity to the Malay, and the éxpression of the eye denotes fierce cruelty.
Ear-lobes, blueish white.
Comb small, but larger than in the pure Malay, is of similar shape and inclination, but in some resembles a diminutive Hamburgh's.
Neck long, neck-hackle in both sexes black and velvetty, with greenish shadows.

In the male occasionally is exhibited a dark reddish hackle with black ink stains or tips, with a lighter tinge underneath. The usual colour of the body of the male varies from a light to a dark red, with breast and rump black or partridge brown, the former spangled with semi-oval spots. The females are far more beautiful, being of a rich pheasant colour or light red, are of good shape and make. The markings on the breast resemble the plumage of the cock pheasant, from which peculiarity arises the idea of the existence of a cross between them and that bird. Some specimens are less attractive, being of a duller hue. Tail not strongly sickled, but well defined and carried uprightly, is more abundant than in the Malay, and of a dark brown and black feather, frequently grey or grizzled in some part. In the hen they are of a similar hue, and in some specimens the two uppermost feathers indicate an inclination to curl. Legs yellow, but sometimes white and rather long. The hens prove excellent sitters and mothers, and if well feathered are very ornamental. Their eggs are well shaped and of good flavour, but rather small, averaging about two ounces in the winter season, and two and one third during the warmer months-are of smooth surface and tinged with buff or light chocolate. They are free layers, but usually commence late in the season. Flesh is white and very excellent, partaking of the flavour of the Pheasant, in connexion with the size and juiciness of the fowl, is held in much esteem as a table delicacy.

 

[keblow]

I just went through this thread and didn't realize it was old lol. I would like to say that the Ideal Kraienkoeppes had absolutely the worst manfighters I've ever seen in ANY breed, but that was 6 or 7 years ago I had them. Not sure if they've improved that trait or not.

 

[Sic]

Illustrations of Malay from Ferguson's Illustrated series on Rare and Prize Poultry ~1854

 

[Chris09]

Here is some information I found on them.
The Kraienköppe was developed around 1850 from crosses between Belgium Game, Malay, Old English Game and Twents/Drents landfowl. This period the breed was called Biethaon (biting fowl). The name Kraienkoppe comes from their loud crow (' kraaien' in Dutch). When games and exhibition interests became less interesting they decided to increase the egg production by crossing Leghorns into them.

(Above information is from ultimatefowl)


Chris

 

[bigb-71]

they are still young about seven months . but they will bite anything that moves and they fly great very long leged . i'm really likeing them so far also very friendly breed . probley not the best but its a start these are my two Kraienkoppe pullets . they are defined oriental heritage breed i think ? any info or help is great thank you .

 

[GotGame]

Quote:
Oh, I really hope you don't use an Old English or an American Game.

Mixing in any bird with a game attitude would, I think, be a huge breeding mistake and be a disservice to the Kraienkoppe breed. Of course, you can breed your chickens in any way you want, but I would hope that you would warn buyers that you've added game to the Kraienkoppes you sell because, as it sits, Kraienkoppe roosters are known for their easy going temperment toward humans.

I would never want to add any of your birds to my flock if you were to add Old English or American Game to yours. I enjoy being able to walk amongst the Kraienkoppes with ease as I do my duties. I can't do that with my dual purpose layer flock that has three dual purpose roosters running with it. All of my Kraienkoppes free range with each other, even the cocks and cockerels. I don't think that would be possible if an American Game were bred into the breed, but I could be wrong since I'm not really up on game birds ... I've just seen videos of them strapped to barrels, which I don't have to do with Kraienkoppes and don't want to have to do if they get too much game blood in them.

I might offer you eggs or a cock, but no one's laying right now, not to mention that I'm busier than all get out. All the hens are either still brooding chicks or transitioning either back into broodiness or hopefully transitioning to laying after a move. Oh, and a few are molting, also. All cocks are are spoken for here. Besides, my group all originally came from a hatchery, which is usually undesirable. I only managed one selected breeding with a trio this summer. The others were flock breedings.

Again, I think it would be a shame to muddle up the Kraienkoppes with game blood. I guess, mixing in one game bird, then back crossing only the gentlest roosters for 7 generations might be acceptable.

That is ridiculous. Game Cocks that are man aggressive are culls. They would be culled quicker than an aggressive cochin, or about any other breed, as they could do serious damage to their handler if they were aggressive. I have friends who have had american game all their lives, and they will cull a man fighter as quick as they can get their hands on it. The incorrect knowledge about game birds being spread on this site constantly surprises.

 

[Gresh]

Quote:
Oh, I really hope you don't use an Old English or an American Game.

Mixing in any bird with a game attitude would, I think, be a huge breeding mistake and be a disservice to the Kraienkoppe breed. Of course, you can breed your chickens in any way you want, but I would hope that you would warn buyers that you've added game to the Kraienkoppes you sell because, as it sits, Kraienkoppe roosters are known for their easy going temperment toward humans.

I would never want to add any of your birds to my flock if you were to add Old English or American Game to yours. I enjoy being able to walk amongst the Kraienkoppes with ease as I do my duties. I can't do that with my dual purpose layer flock that has three dual purpose roosters running with it. All of my Kraienkoppes free range with each other, even the cocks and cockerels. I don't think that would be possible if an American Game were bred into the breed, but I could be wrong since I'm not really up on game birds ... I've just seen videos of them strapped to barrels, which I don't have to do with Kraienkoppes and don't want to have to do if they get too much game blood in them.

I might offer you eggs or a cock, but no one's laying right now, not to mention that I'm busier than all get out. All the hens are either still brooding chicks or transitioning either back into broodiness or hopefully transitioning to laying after a move. Oh, and a few are molting, also. All cocks are are spoken for here. Besides, my group all originally came from a hatchery, which is usually undesirable. I only managed one selected breeding with a trio this summer. The others were flock breedings.

Again, I think it would be a shame to muddle up the Kraienkoppes with game blood. I guess, mixing in one game bird, then back crossing only the gentlest roosters for 7 generations might be acceptable.

Begging your pardon, but I think you have greatly misunderstood Old English and American games, as well as Kraienkoppes. First of all, like GotGame said, American and Old English games that are PURE have as a defining characteristic a very PEOPLE-FRIENDLY demeanor. Anything besides this goes to Kentucky Fried Chicken. Breeding OEGs or AGs to Kraienkoppes would make Kraienkoppes even MORE friendly than they are, provided that the Game bloodlines are pure.
Secondly, Kraienkoppes already have game bloodlines in them. As a matter of fact, the Malay, an Oriental game, is notorious for its aggressive demeanor, and was used in the making of the Kraienkoppe; but do you see this aggression in the Kraienkoppe today? Certainly not. Also, the Leghorn is not a people-friendly breed, and it also is included in Kraienkoppe bloodlines. Belgian and Old English Games also make up the Kraienkoppe's ancestry, yet these breeds (at least the OEGs) are already people-friendly.
Thirdly, the Kraienkoppe's generally mild disposition towards other roosters is most likely the result of crossing done in the early 20th century to improve the breed's egg-laying. Leghorns, though not people-friendly generally, do tolerate other roosters of the same breed and roosters of different breeds. Because not every facet of the Kraienkoppe's lineage is known, it can be reasonably assumed that other rooster-tolerant or rooster-friendly breeds were crossed into it as well.
Lastly, to say that one is "muddling up" the Kraienkoppe's bloodlines by breeding in games is not only a mistake based on the Kraienkoppe's ancestry, but also a mistake because the Kraienkoppe is, historically and even presently, regarded as a GAME breed itself.
Sorry to bombard you, but we gamefowl fanciers/breeders/enthusiasts are very quick to expunge the public's misguided opinions about games

 

[Chris09]

Quote:
You are referencing "... friends who have had american game all their lives...." **All their lives**

Mixing game blood into a backyard type of chicken would be ridiculous (without disclosing). Period. Backyarders who have no experience with games who would have to deal with "man fighters" (as you call them) would be ridiculous. And that was my point. I don't want to have to cull these "man fighters." I don't know how often these "man fighters" jump out of the genetic woodpile, but they haven't all been bred out of the breed or you wouldn't even have to introduce them to the discussion. The game genetics would get into the Kraienkoppes. I don't see why backcrossing for 7 generations before releasing them for general consumption wouldn't take care of it, but then I'm no expert.

I want to be able to continue to run 3 or more Kraienkoppe roosters out free ranging with the Kraienkoppe hens. I want to be able to watch the hens introduce their chicks back into the flock as I now am. It's a delight. The Kraienkoppe roosters are gentle and welcoming. I don't have to separate anyone. They are like chickens in the wild. I don't want to buy some of these recreated Kraienkoppes 5 years down the line and have this idyllic situation ruined. Kraienkoppe may look gamey, but it was all bred out in the Netherlands and Germany. Many, not all, of the hens are flighty like Leghorns, but the Kraienkoppes have the nature of regular chickens.

Frankly, I don't care how people cross birds, but they shouldn't be recreating Kraienkoppes by using a game without disclosing that information to backyard chicken owners who have no idea how to deal with either game mixes or the "man fighters" that could easily pop up. Give the remakes a different name or something. Besides, wasn't it a Pheasant Malay instead of Malay that was used in the creation of the Kraienkoppe? Call the recreated birds some other name to avoid confusing the masses.

Maybe before you got the Kraienköppe breed you should have look at the breed history and done your homework on the breed. If you did the research then you would have found that the breed was primarily made up of Gamefowl breeds as with other large fowl breeds of chickens and of those large fowl that are not primarily made of Gamefowl breeds 90% of them will have at least one Gamefowl breed in them. As I posted back in post #5 the Kraienköppe was bred from Belgium Game, Malay, Old English Game and Twents/Drents landfowl.

The Kraienköppe was bred for cockfighting and at one time the breed was called Biethaon (biting fowl). When the breed became less interesting they decided to increase the egg production by crossing Leghorns into them.

Chris