ATTN. BREEDERS OF GAMEFOWL: Leghorn X Malay??

[Gresh]

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Oh, I really hope you don't use an Old English or an American Game.

Mixing in any bird with a game attitude would, I think, be a huge breeding mistake and be a disservice to the Kraienkoppe breed. Of course, you can breed your chickens in any way you want, but I would hope that you would warn buyers that you've added game to the Kraienkoppes you sell because, as it sits, Kraienkoppe roosters are known for their easy going temperment toward humans.

I would never want to add any of your birds to my flock if you were to add Old English or American Game to yours. I enjoy being able to walk amongst the Kraienkoppes with ease as I do my duties. I can't do that with my dual purpose layer flock that has three dual purpose roosters running with it. All of my Kraienkoppes free range with each other, even the cocks and cockerels. I don't think that would be possible if an American Game were bred into the breed, but I could be wrong since I'm not really up on game birds ... I've just seen videos of them strapped to barrels, which I don't have to do with Kraienkoppes and don't want to have to do if they get too much game blood in them.

I might offer you eggs or a cock, but no one's laying right now, not to mention that I'm busier than all get out. All the hens are either still brooding chicks or transitioning either back into broodiness or hopefully transitioning to laying after a move. Oh, and a few are molting, also. All cocks are are spoken for here. Besides, my group all originally came from a hatchery, which is usually undesirable. I only managed one selected breeding with a trio this summer. The others were flock breedings.

Again, I think it would be a shame to muddle up the Kraienkoppes with game blood. I guess, mixing in one game bird, then back crossing only the gentlest roosters for 7 generations might be acceptable.

Begging your pardon, but I think you have greatly misunderstood Old English and American games, as well as Kraienkoppes. First of all, like GotGame said, American and Old English games that are PURE have as a defining characteristic a very PEOPLE-FRIENDLY demeanor. Anything besides this goes to Kentucky Fried Chicken. Breeding OEGs or AGs to Kraienkoppes would make Kraienkoppes even MORE friendly than they are, provided that the Game bloodlines are pure.
Secondly, Kraienkoppes already have game bloodlines in them. As a matter of fact, the Malay, an Oriental game, is notorious for its aggressive demeanor, and was used in the making of the Kraienkoppe; but do you see this aggression in the Kraienkoppe today? Certainly not. Also, the Leghorn is not a people-friendly breed, and it also is included in Kraienkoppe bloodlines. Belgian and Old English Games also make up the Kraienkoppe's ancestry, yet these breeds (at least the OEGs) are already people-friendly.
Thirdly, the Kraienkoppe's generally mild disposition towards other roosters is most likely the result of crossing done in the early 20th century to improve the breed's egg-laying. Leghorns, though not people-friendly generally, do tolerate other roosters of the same breed and roosters of different breeds. Because not every facet of the Kraienkoppe's lineage is known, it can be reasonably assumed that other rooster-tolerant or rooster-friendly breeds were crossed into it as well.
Lastly, to say that one is "muddling up" the Kraienkoppe's bloodlines by breeding in games is not only a mistake based on the Kraienkoppe's ancestry, but also a mistake because the Kraienkoppe is, historically and even presently, regarded as a GAME breed itself.
Sorry to bombard you, but we gamefowl fanciers/breeders/enthusiasts are very quick to expunge the public's misguided opinions about games

 

[Gresh]

Quote:
Oh, I really hope you don't use an Old English or an American Game.

Mixing in any bird with a game attitude would, I think, be a huge breeding mistake and be a disservice to the Kraienkoppe breed. Of course, you can breed your chickens in any way you want, but I would hope that you would warn buyers that you've added game to the Kraienkoppes you sell because, as it sits, Kraienkoppe roosters are known for their easy going temperment toward humans.

I would never want to add any of your birds to my flock if you were to add Old English or American Game to yours. I enjoy being able to walk amongst the Kraienkoppes with ease as I do my duties. I can't do that with my dual purpose layer flock that has three dual purpose roosters running with it. All of my Kraienkoppes free range with each other, even the cocks and cockerels. I don't think that would be possible if an American Game were bred into the breed, but I could be wrong since I'm not really up on game birds ... I've just seen videos of them strapped to barrels, which I don't have to do with Kraienkoppes and don't want to have to do if they get too much game blood in them.

I might offer you eggs or a cock, but no one's laying right now, not to mention that I'm busier than all get out. All the hens are either still brooding chicks or transitioning either back into broodiness or hopefully transitioning to laying after a move. Oh, and a few are molting, also. All cocks are are spoken for here. Besides, my group all originally came from a hatchery, which is usually undesirable. I only managed one selected breeding with a trio this summer. The others were flock breedings.

Again, I think it would be a shame to muddle up the Kraienkoppes with game blood. I guess, mixing in one game bird, then back crossing only the gentlest roosters for 7 generations might be acceptable.


See my response and GotGame's response to Eggs-quisite-Eggs-cursion. Not sure how you view OEG and AG temperaments, but our responses may help you.

 

[bigb-71]

i love all the game breeds they are what got me in to this hobby when i was ten my frist birds was a game cock and i carried that poor bird everywhere and he never once fust about it . just sat there and took it . so thank you all for the input !!!!!!
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See my response and GotGame's response to Eggs-quisite-Eggs-cursion. Not sure how you view OEG and AG temperaments, but our responses may help you.

 

[Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion]

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You are referencing "... friends who have had american game all their lives...." **All their lives**

Mixing game blood into a backyard type of chicken would be ridiculous (without disclosing). Period. Backyarders who have no experience with games who would have to deal with "man fighters" (as you call them) would be ridiculous. And that was my point. I don't want to have to cull these "man fighters." I don't know how often these "man fighters" jump out of the genetic woodpile, but they haven't all been bred out of the breed or you wouldn't even have to introduce them to the discussion. The game genetics would get into the Kraienkoppes. I don't see why backcrossing for 7 generations before releasing them for general consumption wouldn't take care of it, but then I'm no expert.

I want to be able to continue to run 3 or more Kraienkoppe roosters out free ranging with the Kraienkoppe hens. I want to be able to watch the hens introduce their chicks back into the flock as I now am. It's a delight. The Kraienkoppe roosters are gentle and welcoming. I don't have to separate anyone. They are like chickens in the wild. I don't want to buy some of these recreated Kraienkoppes 5 years down the line and have this idyllic situation ruined. Kraienkoppe may look gamey, but it was all bred out in the Netherlands and Germany. Many, not all, of the hens are flighty like Leghorns, but the Kraienkoppes have the nature of regular chickens.

Frankly, I don't care how people cross birds, but they shouldn't be recreating Kraienkoppes by using a game without disclosing that information to backyard chicken owners who have no idea how to deal with either game mixes or the "man fighters" that could easily pop up. Give the remakes a different name or something. Besides, wasn't it a Pheasant Malay instead of Malay that was used in the creation of the Kraienkoppe? Call the recreated birds some other name to avoid confusing the masses.

 

[Chris09]

Quote:
You are referencing "... friends who have had american game all their lives...." **All their lives**

Mixing game blood into a backyard type of chicken would be ridiculous (without disclosing). Period. Backyarders who have no experience with games who would have to deal with "man fighters" (as you call them) would be ridiculous. And that was my point. I don't want to have to cull these "man fighters." I don't know how often these "man fighters" jump out of the genetic woodpile, but they haven't all been bred out of the breed or you wouldn't even have to introduce them to the discussion. The game genetics would get into the Kraienkoppes. I don't see why backcrossing for 7 generations before releasing them for general consumption wouldn't take care of it, but then I'm no expert.

I want to be able to continue to run 3 or more Kraienkoppe roosters out free ranging with the Kraienkoppe hens. I want to be able to watch the hens introduce their chicks back into the flock as I now am. It's a delight. The Kraienkoppe roosters are gentle and welcoming. I don't have to separate anyone. They are like chickens in the wild. I don't want to buy some of these recreated Kraienkoppes 5 years down the line and have this idyllic situation ruined. Kraienkoppe may look gamey, but it was all bred out in the Netherlands and Germany. Many, not all, of the hens are flighty like Leghorns, but the Kraienkoppes have the nature of regular chickens.

Frankly, I don't care how people cross birds, but they shouldn't be recreating Kraienkoppes by using a game without disclosing that information to backyard chicken owners who have no idea how to deal with either game mixes or the "man fighters" that could easily pop up. Give the remakes a different name or something. Besides, wasn't it a Pheasant Malay instead of Malay that was used in the creation of the Kraienkoppe? Call the recreated birds some other name to avoid confusing the masses.

Maybe before you got the Kraienköppe breed you should have look at the breed history and done your homework on the breed. If you did the research then you would have found that the breed was primarily made up of Gamefowl breeds as with other large fowl breeds of chickens and of those large fowl that are not primarily made of Gamefowl breeds 90% of them will have at least one Gamefowl breed in them. As I posted back in post #5 the Kraienköppe was bred from Belgium Game, Malay, Old English Game and Twents/Drents landfowl.

The Kraienköppe was bred for cockfighting and at one time the breed was called Biethaon (biting fowl). When the breed became less interesting they decided to increase the egg production by crossing Leghorns into them.

Chris

 

[GotGame]

Quote:
You are referencing "... friends who have had american game all their lives...." **All their lives**

Mixing game blood into a backyard type of chicken would be ridiculous (without disclosing). Period. Backyarders who have no experience with games who would have to deal with "man fighters" (as you call them) would be ridiculous. And that was my point. I don't want to have to cull these "man fighters." I don't know how often these "man fighters" jump out of the genetic woodpile, but they haven't all been bred out of the breed or you wouldn't even have to introduce them to the discussion. The game genetics would get into the Kraienkoppes. I don't see why backcrossing for 7 generations before releasing them for general consumption wouldn't take care of it, but then I'm no expert.

I want to be able to continue to run 3 or more Kraienkoppe roosters out free ranging with the Kraienkoppe hens. I want to be able to watch the hens introduce their chicks back into the flock as I now am. It's a delight. The Kraienkoppe roosters are gentle and welcoming. I don't have to separate anyone. They are like chickens in the wild. I don't want to buy some of these recreated Kraienkoppes 5 years down the line and have this idyllic situation ruined. Kraienkoppe may look gamey, but it was all bred out in the Netherlands and Germany. Many, not all, of the hens are flighty like Leghorns, but the Kraienkoppes have the nature of regular chickens.

Frankly, I don't care how people cross birds, but they shouldn't be recreating Kraienkoppes by using a game without disclosing that information to backyard chicken owners who have no idea how to deal with either game mixes or the "man fighters" that could easily pop up. Give the remakes a different name or something. Besides, wasn't it a Pheasant Malay instead of Malay that was used in the creation of the Kraienkoppe? Call the recreated birds some other name to avoid confusing the masses.

Maybe before you got the Kraienköppe breed you should have look at the breed history and done your homework on the breed. If you did the research then you would have found that the breed was primarily made up of Gamefowl breeds as with other large fowl breeds of chickens and of those large fowl that are not primarily made of Gamefowl breeds 90% of them will have at least one Gamefowl breed in them. As I posted back in post #5 the Kraienköppe was bred from Belgium Game, Malay, Old English Game and Twents/Drents landfowl.

The Kraienköppe was bred for cockfighting and at one time the breed was called Biethaon (biting fowl). When the breed became less interesting they decided to increase the egg production by crossing Leghorns into them.

Chris

Lol.....I repeat, the ignorance passed on as knowledge about game birds on here can be astounding....good post chris.

 

[Gresh]

Quote:
You are referencing "... friends who have had american game all their lives...." **All their lives**

Mixing game blood into a backyard type of chicken would be ridiculous (without disclosing). Period. Backyarders who have no experience with games who would have to deal with "man fighters" (as you call them) would be ridiculous. And that was my point. I don't want to have to cull these "man fighters." I don't know how often these "man fighters" jump out of the genetic woodpile, but they haven't all been bred out of the breed or you wouldn't even have to introduce them to the discussion. The game genetics would get into the Kraienkoppes. I don't see why backcrossing for 7 generations before releasing them for general consumption wouldn't take care of it, but then I'm no expert.

I want to be able to continue to run 3 or more Kraienkoppe roosters out free ranging with the Kraienkoppe hens. I want to be able to watch the hens introduce their chicks back into the flock as I now am. It's a delight. The Kraienkoppe roosters are gentle and welcoming. I don't have to separate anyone. They are like chickens in the wild. I don't want to buy some of these recreated Kraienkoppes 5 years down the line and have this idyllic situation ruined. Kraienkoppe may look gamey, but it was all bred out in the Netherlands and Germany. Many, not all, of the hens are flighty like Leghorns, but the Kraienkoppes have the nature of regular chickens.

Frankly, I don't care how people cross birds, but they shouldn't be recreating Kraienkoppes by using a game without disclosing that information to backyard chicken owners who have no idea how to deal with either game mixes or the "man fighters" that could easily pop up. Give the remakes a different name or something. Besides, wasn't it a Pheasant Malay instead of Malay that was used in the creation of the Kraienkoppe? Call the recreated birds some other name to avoid confusing the masses.

Maybe before you got the Kraienköppe breed you should have look at the breed history and done your homework on the breed. If you did the research then you would have found that the breed was primarily made up of Gamefowl breeds as with other large fowl breeds of chickens and of those large fowl that are not primarily made of Gamefowl breeds 90% of them will have at least one Gamefowl breed in them. As I posted back in post #5 the Kraienköppe was bred from Belgium Game, Malay, Old English Game and Twents/Drents landfowl.

The Kraienköppe was bred for cockfighting and at one time the breed was called Biethaon (biting fowl). When the breed became less interesting they decided to increase the egg production by crossing Leghorns into them.

Chris

Well said, Chris!

 

[Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion]

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Currently, regardless of their past uses, Kraienkoppes are not used as game birds. They are layers. They (called Twentshoenders) in the Netherlands are used as utility layers. Just because they have a Pheasant Malay in their background in the distant past doesn't make them a game bird of today regardless of what some list puts them on. The Pheasant Malay was also used in making the Rhode Island Red. Who would call a RIR a game bird?

I stand by my opinion, as an owner of Kraienkoppes and someone who has spent hours watching them, recreating them with a Malay, a Leghorn, and an American Game and then passing them off as Kraienkoppes to future owners would be irresponsible, etc. I'm surprised that everyone is disagreeing with me.

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This is purely conjecture on your part. I disagree with you. The Kraienkoppes in North American right now are perfect the way they are. I would hate to see their dispositions changed in any way. I don't see how they could be "more friendly." I do not want them to be more like an Old English Game nor more like an American Game. My Kraienkoppes are great just the way they are. Why would anyone want to change them?

The Kraienkoppes do not need to be recreated. Recreation of a breed is for a desperate situation. There is no desperate situation right now. There are Kraienkoppes available. I would think that responsible breeders would be more interested in preserving a breed that is available than in crossing in this or that or in recreating it from a Malay (which is a far cry from the Pheasant Malay which is no longer available) and a Leghorn and an American Game or maybe OEG. What a hodge podge that would be. It surely wouldn't be a Kraienkoppe! Not in looks, nor in personality.

I am shocked that my defense of the Kraienkoppe in North America, though poorly worded, I'll admit, is being dismissed and discredited.

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It's true. I could easily misuse the word "game." It's a tricky word to try to use. That would render me incomprehensible. So, yes, I understand that there are oriental breeds in the Kraienkoppe's ancestry, that there are Dutch and/or Belgian game birds in its ancestry, etc. (Not everyone agrees with the OEG being in their ancestry.) I understand that were agressive years and years ago, as in before WWI or whenever, but that was bred out. It's gone. They are currently non-aggressive to anyone and other chickens. My free ranging Kraienkoppes are pushovers. They are good at staring down other roosters from other breeds. I don't know how they'd react to a fox or other predator since we don't live in a high predator area and most predators are nocturnal and most of my Kraienkoppes go into a shelter to roost at night. As for the Kraienkoppe presently being regarded a game breed iself, that's an iffy one. I don't think there are any hard and fast delineations on that one. Some may try, but there is definite disagreement there. I come down on the side of the Kraienkoppe being a good backyard bird for people who have a little room for free ranging and who want a bird that can be counted on to go broody and raise a few chicks. Having a game breed in their ancestry does *not* make them a game breed now. Just look at Marans, RIRs, Buckeyes, etc., etc., ad infinitum. I think those that have owned Kraienkoppes for a while tend to not consider them as a game breed. Do you have some Kraienkoppes and still consider them to be a game breed?

I'll try this again: The Kraienkoppe as it stands in North American right now does not need to have its genetics muddied up with American Games. I don't think the Germans claim any OEG in their strains/lines (whatever) and since the North American Kraienkoppe is likely predominiantly German, I'd prefer that no OEG be thrown into (or back into) the mix. I'll say the same about the Malay because it was never a part of the Kraienkoppe; it was the Pheasant Malay that was used as the foundation of the Kraienkoppe. The Kraienkoppe in North America has a delightful personality and needs no adjustments from folks who look down on it and want to change it to suit their own whims.

 

[Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion]

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Do you actually think that just because I'm afraid of the term "game" and using it around here and even not sure how folks use it ... that obviously then I didn't do any research before I decided on Kraienkoppes? Who in the world would ever buy Kraienkoppes without finding out something about them? Most people, and chicken fanciers at that, have never even heard of Kraienkoppes or their pals across the border with another name. So you think that just out of the blue I decided to buy a flock of birds I'd never even heard of with a really weird name?

I bet we could drop the umlaut since this is a English language web site.

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Quite the sentence there, Chris. But large fowl breeds with gamefowl in their ancestry are predominantly not still considered gamefowl. Not everyone considers Kraienkoppe to be gamefowl. Many consider them to be utility fowl or layers. I don't know what will happen in the future, but right now there is disagreement. I have only known Kraienkoppe to be a backyard chicken until yesterday. You may claim that that is due to my ignorance, but even Christine Heinrichs, affiliated now or formerly with SPPA, puts the Kraienkoppe under the heading "dual purpose" breed. I don't think many would consider her ignorant. Besides, I have a flock of Kraienkoppes. I know how they act. I know what they do. Why discount my view of their nature? They seem like regular chickens to me with maybe a touch of more chicken-like behavior that has not been bred out of them yet.

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Well, that's for the Twentse found in the Netherlands. The Germans don't list the Old English Game. A lot of work was done on it right after WWII. Could you tell me more about that? Also why is it that you think it was the Malay instead of the Pheasant Malay that was used as a foundation bird of the Kraienkoppe?

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That's an interesting bit of trivia. Could you please give me the source on that translation? And saying that it's at Ultimate Fowl is not a reliable source. I couldn't verify it. But then Dutch isn't a language I speak.

 

[GotGame]

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My disagreement with you was on your statements made about the game birds attitudes. But to put it simply, I have games, I know how they act and i know what they do. They are not a human aggressive bird, ESPECIALLY oriental games, like malays. I have young game stags that follow me around and are constantly underfoot as I do chores. I DO agree with you about trying to 'make' or remake a breed, especially one that is still available. All you would have is a poor imitation. You might have done research into kraiens, but you certainly havent done any into oriental games. And yes, I am referencing friends who have had american games all their lives, which adds up to over 100 years of owning games, not including their fathers, and grandfathers, and so on.