B.Y.C. Dorking Club!

[Totalcolour]

Dorkings are one of the parent breeds for Large Fowl Faverolles,so it is more like going back to the source then bringing in another breed... BTW I have the support of my breed club and many LF Faverolles breeders/mentors in my project, I even have an ongoing article in our club newsletter. If you do not have the genes needed in an available population of animals then you have no choice but to go to an outside source... and Faverolles have been suffering from gene depression for several decades, primarally due to their being so few people actually working with them. Our National meet had only 7 birds, a master breeder and one of his buyers. The biggest show in the last 40 years was held recently at the Eastern Poultry Congress, I believe there were 22 birds in all classes, 6 of which were Cackle hatchery stock, another 5 belonged to a woman who had them in a laying only flock- when one of her pullets took best of breed we all begged her to consider taking home a free male... in the end she "loaned" her winning pullet to a breeder in Maine.the remaining birds were all either fro Dick Boulangers flock, or like my hen were directly from it give or take a generation. I was still very pleased my hen took best in her class of 5 out of 3 exhibitors, even though she has never laid more then 2 eggs a week in her entire life (she is 4) and NONE of her sons made it to the freezer for human consumption... although I am certain the dog was pleased with that even if I was not. Breeding for the desired traits quickly leads to major issues due to the lack of diversity in Faverolles gene pool; beardlessness, split wing, fertility issues, vigor (all my second year chicks in one of my pens needed assistance to hatch) and many others will quickly make any Fav flock a nightmare for all but the most dedicated of breeders... so you will have to pardon me if after 8 years of working with them (again, I also briefly had them in the 90's until a common virus killed the entire flock) and many long discussions with breeders who have had them for years, if I am the rebel that goes "outside of the box" to try to fix a problem with the breed I love... I am sure if your breed was as troubled, you would do the same.

Well, that is one philosophy certainly. And I respect you for it. My own is very different. I don't particularly like the human race, and would do NOTHING to prevent it's extinction from the earth in order to allow other species to recover form our human "meddlings".

Never mind about chicken breeds.

 

[sandiklaws]

Ok, criticism. Not personal. A breeding program. It is my firm belief, that anyone doing ANYTHING needs to understand the undertaking before it is undertaken. You can't just decide to be a brain surgeon, until you have the training. Well I suppose you could but it would go nastily sideways in short order.

Same same with chickens: - you can go to fairs, breeders, auctions, and buy some birds, go home, put them in pens and start breeding. You are indeed a breeder. Good one? NOPE.

There are many "puppy" mills based along those lines. Not saying that hat has been written here is the same thing, but not far off for many I suspect.

Improving Faverolles, IMO, should be done with other Favs, not an outcross, because then it isn't really a Faverolles. You can't cross a Terrier with a poodle to get some characteristic and still claim it is a Terrier (or a poodle). Even ten generations along, it is still a MUTT!.So when you talk about outcrossing, yup, I'm against it. It's like cheating. Until a line breeds true it's not pure. And it's really hard to determine if it's pure without genetic testing.

And as long as there are folk who outcross, and don't disclose it, then the breed is no longer pure, and it's a disgrace to the individual breeder, and breed clubs and the industry altogether. It's a LIE.

Seven generations of breeding back to a pure source is regarded as "breeding up" and is used often in all sorts of animal husbandry where extremely rare breeds are involved. A population has to be stable and viable in order for enough numbers to be generated for progress to be made, something difficult to do in a breed that doesn't have a lot of followers and can be traced back to one source almost without exception.

example of breeding up in horses:
http://www.sugarbushdrafthorse.com/revival.html

My goal with the program is to create a line of birds that breeds true in about a decade, at which time they will be considered "pure". Since there is no pedigree process for poultry, any flock that has been bred to the SOP and breeds true is considered pure... and if you were to get DNA samples from all of the Faverolles flocks in America you would discover 2 things; one, they are all very close in genetic make-up, and two, they all have traces of Dorking in them ALREADY since back when the breed originated the Dorking was widely used in the creation of the Faverolles breed. So I am afraid you are mistaken, I am not creating "mongrels" I am creating a line of Faverolles with slightly more Dorking DNA then most people have.

Also, many breeds are being bred in the new chocolate gene... ever wonder how a breed can get that gene?
http://kippenjungle.nl/chocolatelakenvelder.html

Again, approximately 7 generations and you have birds that breed true to type... regardless of what breed the chocolate gene "donor" was, we have all seen similar in Lavender, frizzle, silkied and Lemon Cuckoo. In the big picture, I think breeding back to one of the founding breeds, to re-capture some of the original traits that have sadly been lost within the modern Faverolles, is hardly worth getting a bee in your bonnet over compared to some of the breeding madness that is all over the place in regards to color varieties and feather mutations.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

just like doctors use different words and are more direct when they talk to each other than when they talk to a patient, professionals of any group need to use a different language when they talk among themselves than when they talk to a broader audience.

This actually encapsulates much of what happened. My biggest regret is not to have been clear on the "audience", and it is what was elucidated in the following comments. It is good, and let's pray peace. On the other hand, it is good for a community to argue on occasion; to those who are willing, it can clarify and renew. Please note, that I did not say I was leaving. I did say that I would alter my participation strategy, but that is appropriate. The above quote speaks volumes; there are fora for all sorts of conversation. There are different spaces for more direct breeder conversations.


On the Faverolles "to outcross or not to outcross" question, there are two schools of thought. One would say absolutely not, insisting that genetic purity is paramount; others would say, whatever gets them to the Standard. Personally, I tend to operate in a place in between. I feel that certain breeds cannot be reproduced, while others can be; this on account of their history. If the Dorking is lost; it is lost. The Faverolles is a rather new breed in the pantheon. There are many who would say, and I would count myself as one of them, I did sell Sandiclaws the Dorkings with full knowledge of her intent, that rebuilding a composite breed is feasible, especially going back to the blood that made it. One example may be Kathyinmo's new Delaware line, which is coming around rather nicely.

One breeder, whom I know and respect, who outcrossed to get tails back on the Wyandotte bantams, which had been bred away from the Standard for Cochin-esque bunny tails. He would say, and I agree, that the trick is getting the unavailable element on either side of the mating. Thus:

1. 1st generation = Pure Faverolles x Pure Dorking
2. 2nd generation = Pure Faverolles x F1
3. 3rd generation = F2 X F2...and here breed hard and, yes, cull hard, and the Dorking grandparents underneath should do a lot.

 

[Totalcolour]

Seven generations of breeding back to a pure source is regarded as "breeding up" and is used often in all sorts of animal husbandry where extremely rare breeds are involved. A population has to be stable and viable in order for enough numbers to be generated for progress to be made, something difficult to do in a breed that doesn't have a lot of followers and can be traced back to one source almost without exception.

example of breeding up in horses:
http://www.sugarbushdrafthorse.com/revival.html

My goal with the program is to create a line of birds that breeds true in about a decade, at which time they will be considered "pure". Since there is no pedigree process for poultry, any flock that has been bred to the SOP and breeds true is considered pure... and if you were to get DNA samples from all of the Faverolles flocks in America you would discover 2 things; one, they are all very close in genetic make-up, and two, they all have traces of Dorking in them ALREADY since back when the breed originated the Dorking was widely used in the creation of the Faverolles breed. So I am afraid you are mistaken, I am not creating "mongrels" I am creating a line of Faverolles with slightly more Dorking DNA then most people have.

Also, many breeds are being bred in the new chocolate gene... ever wonder how a breed can get that gene?
http://kippenjungle.nl/chocolatelakenvelder.html

Again, approximately 7 generations and you have birds that breed true to type... regardless of what breed the chocolate gene "donor" was, we have all seen similar in Lavender, frizzle, silkied and Lemon Cuckoo. In the big picture, I think breeding back to one of the founding breeds, to re-capture some of the original traits that have sadly been lost within the modern Faverolles, is hardly worth getting a bee in your bonnet over compared to some of the breeding madness that is all over the place in regards to color varieties and feather mutations.

Aah, I think we are talking at cross purposes here. I am talking "foundation' as in several hundred or thousand years old, like the Arabian horse, or the Akhal-Teke or Caspian; all ancient breeds. {horses] Or Dorking, Sussex, or Nankin, representing chickens.

To me, if these breeds were lost, yes it would be a great loss, since they are foundations for many other breeds.

My point was, that many of the breed we have now, are really based on different crosses of different foundation breeds.

Yes, if the Faverolles (which is not a breed I am familiar with) is a "NEW" age breed, then it is of course possible to reconstruct. I don't think though, that we could re-create the Dorking if it were lost. Same for the Sussex or Nankin (and several others).

 

[sandiklaws]

Aah, I think we are talking at cross purposes here. I am talking "foundation' as in several hundred or thousand years old, like the Arabian horse, or the Akhal-Teke or Caspian; all ancient breeds. {horses] Or Dorking, Sussex, or Nankin, representing chickens.

To me, if these breeds were lost, yes it would be a great loss, since they are foundations for many other breeds.

My point was, that many of the breed we have now, are really based on different crosses of different foundation breeds.

Yes, if the Faverolles (which is not a breed I am familiar with) is a "NEW" age breed, then it is of course possible to reconstruct. I don't think though, that we could re-create the Dorking if it were lost. Same for the Sussex or Nankin (and several others).

Agreed, the Dorkings are ancient and cannot be reconstructed, same as the Cochin, Jungle fowl or Silkie. Faverolles were developed in the mid 1800's, with Dorkings being a major contributor to their genetic make-up, for the Parisian markets as a winter layer that was gentle, a good setter and withstood confinement well, produced lots of eggs in the winter (which they simply do not do anymore) and whose cockerels were excellent for fattening for the table having very fine textured flesh and superb flavor... again something they simply no longer have as a trait...although the flavor is still there. I actually considered Dorkings as a second choice when setting up my pens in 2006, but I just couldn't turn away from the Favs which were my first poultry love.

 

[chickletteSarge]

so after reading the past few pages... i am unsubscribing from this thread.... i have only read maybe one or two posts accually about DORKINGS! maybe in a month or two i will return to find that the discussion has returned to that... and for a page that is all about the love of the breed and what not... nice to know there was only one person willing to point me in the direction of their eggs... i would have thought there would have been more posters to suggest where i may try looking or even offer to sell me thier eggs... oh well....guess ill have to return to find out...

 

[sandiklaws]

On the Faverolles "to outcross or not to outcross" question, there are two schools of thought. One would say absolutely not, insisting that genetic purity is paramount; others would say, whatever gets them to the Standard. Personally, I tend to operate in a place in between. I feel that certain breeds cannot be reproduced, while others can be; this on account of their history. If the Dorking is lost; it is lost. The Faverolles is a rather new breed in the pantheon. There are many who would say, and I would count myself as one of them, I did sell Sandiclaws the Dorkings with full knowledge of her intent, that rebuilding a composite breed is feasible, especially going back to the blood that made it. One example may be Kathyinmo's new Delaware line, which is coming around rather nicely.

One breeder, whom I know and respect, who outcrossed to get tails back on the Wyandotte bantams, which had been bred away from the Standard for Cochin-esque bunny tails. He would say, and I agree, that the trick is getting the unavailable element on either side of the mating. Thus:

1. 1st generation = Pure Faverolles x Pure Dorking
2. 2nd generation = Pure Faverolles x F1
3. 3rd generation = F2 X F2...and here breed hard and, yes, cull hard, and the Dorking grandparents underneath should do a lot.

...and I cannot thank you enough for giving me that chance at fixing my breeds issues with your stock's genetics of superior meat qualities. The girls I have for this year are awesome in regards to what the favs need

 

[cukooformarans]

Let's talk Dorkings! Does anybody have any good pictures? I should have more eggs coming from Dick Horstman in the next week and I am so excited!

 

[cukooformarans]

So many people say that the Dorkings grow slowly. However, these are growing quite nicely! When people say that they grow slowly, are they comparing them to broiler crosses or to other heritage breeds? Even my husband commented on their nice size for their age!

 

[Kilsharion]

I have eggs en route from Joyous for the Crele project...Dick should be sending me some in the next few weeks and Jeanne will be sending me some in May...I'm very much looking forward to it. I haz babiz in my brooder, right now, too that I can't wait to see grow up.