B.Y.C. Dorking Club!

[greenhorn]

Hi all,

Sorry to hear about your troubles ki4got, hope things start to work out better for you. I hate losing birds.

I have to say again that we feel very fortunate to have whites from Yellow House and are so glad Joseph decided to let some go this year. Our new chicken coop is coming along every day. We are pouring a concrete floor today and hope to be finished with the building in a couple weeks or so. We wanted to get this building up in June but things didn't work out in the realm of time but we are getting it done now.

Here is a picture of a few birds the wife took yesterday. I am uploading a video right now and will post it as soon as it's finished.

Thanks again and again Joseph, more pics coming soon.

 

[DaveK]

Hmmm....I have the exact opposite need. If I feed my chicks 20% protein they grow too fast and look deformed around the eyes. 17-18% is right on the money.

All the chicks in 24hours, though, wouldn't be protein levels. How old were they precisely? How were they behaving?

Joe, depending on the environment you rear your youngsters in you and Karen might actually be on the same page as far as protein levels. 20% fed to a population that free ranges from the earliest possible age, as she does, isn't the same as 20% fed to growers who have fewer options for diluting the bagged food and reducing the total protein %. What the heck would take out the chicks when all else is and has been going fine is a mystery to me. Crap. There goes a good shot at superb type.

 

[ki4got]

Did you check their crops to see if any issues there, perhaps? I have read while studying Sussex
that Dorking chicks can be hard to rear, sigh. But how odd, all within 24 hrs.
How sad and what frustration!
karen

the crops were empty when they died, but they were eating well prior, so i don't think it was a crop issue. the only thing i can guess is maybe they shared a bug of some sort that was toxic. but usually the chicks seem to know what's what. not like i can prevent bad bugs from walking/flying into a pen, and i haven't lost any others, so no idea.

 

[pysankigirl]

I could see how that could happen...in my tiny new flock I have been amazed at how cliqueish my birds are. the welsummers stick together, the dorking females stick together, the new girls (marans and one americauna) stick together.

hugs

 

[greenhorn]

Ok, here is the video I promised of the whites.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Joe, depending on the environment you rear your youngsters in you and Karen might actually be on the same page as far as protein levels. 20% fed to a population that free ranges from the earliest possible age, as she does, isn't the same as 20% fed to growers who have fewer options for diluting the bagged food and reducing the total protein %. What the heck would take out the chicks when all else is and has been going fine is a mystery to me. Crap. There goes a good shot at superb type.

Yeah, Dave! Oh I love dialogue! The young I am describing were all being artificially brooded indoors, where this was their sole diet. Can you expound on this more?

 

[ki4got]

Joe, depending on the environment you rear your youngsters in you and Karen might actually be on the same page as far as protein levels. 20% fed to a population that free ranges from the earliest possible age, as she does, isn't the same as 20% fed to growers who have fewer options for diluting the bagged food and reducing the total protein %. What the heck would take out the chicks when all else is and has been going fine is a mystery to me. Crap. There goes a good shot at superb type.

good point Dave, about overall protein %... these chicks haven't been free ranged yet, but were in a large pen with lots of greens.

and for superb type, not for good, just for now. gotta get ME fixed back up before i can concentrate on getting more dorkings.

think i'm going to pass on the eggs for now and concentrate on chicks, if available (for reds that is). and until then i'll work on what i've already got going.

 

[Sydney Acres]

well, i find if i go lower on the protein then they don't seem to develop well at all for me and tend to be stunted, while 20% seems to be about right. *shrug*
the mill i get my feed from only does 1 chick food and 1 layer pellet, and they both work well for me.

they hatched july 2. (4 of them, 2 pullet, 2 cockerels) they seemed to be behaving normally, then i found 1 dead, the others were still behaving normally as far as i could tell, but the last 2 i brought in because i felt something was off. they were still acting and eating normally, but crying a lot. the last few hours both looked 'hunched' and then became lethargic and just died a few hours later (about 2 hours apart). none of the other chicks in the pen are showing anythign like that. someone bought 5 chicks from that pen day before yesterday and they're all doing fine still too.

Hi Ki4got,
I'm so sorry that you lost those chicks. When chicks have that much potential, it hurts our breeding program, and our hearts.

Have you sent them in to be necropsied (an autopsy, but for animals)? That can sometimes give you important answers. It can be done quite cheaply in many areas of the country, where it is often subsidized by either private industry (which doesn't want a multimillion dollar chicken industry wiped out by a contagious disease from someone's backyard flock) or by the dept. of agriculture. You can contact the Virginia Tech, Virginia-Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine (540-231-7666, talk to the pathology dept first, then if needed the poultry science dept), or your state dept of agriculture, or your county agricultural extension office to see who could do the necropsy and what your cost would be. The last chicks I had done were only $10, and the necropsies were very thorough. If you do want to have them necropsied, put them in the refrigerator immediately (not the freezer), and transport them to the necropsy facility ASAP in a cooler with ice packs. The necropsy will be less accurate with every day that passes, so this is very time sensitive.

If I understand the situation properly, you had a larger number of chicks (how many chicks total?, all the same breed? all the same age?) in a grow pen with green forage (but not free range yet), and you lost all 4 (2 male, 2 female) of the 5 wk old chicks out of eggs you got from Rudy. None of the other chicks were sick or died, but all of the "Rudy chicks" died. They were being fed 20% chick crumble from a small mill that does not produce medicated feed (which likely rules out accidental poisoning from the mill). They were normal until 24 hours or less prior to death, and were not sickly chicks that had been growing poorly. Their symptoms shortly prior to death were vocalizing, hunching, and lethargy (painful?). And you are an experienced chick raiser that has hatched and raised hundreds (?) of chicks successfully.

If the above circumstances are accurate, then it is not reasonable to blame this on nutrition. It is standard to raise chicks on 14-24% protein, with different levels being used for different purposes, different breeds, and different ages. (I know that many people will strongly disagree with my range -- that's ok. Anything outside of 16-20% is usually for very specific goals.) But regardless of your "protein philosophy," you don't see acute death in multiple birds by feeding slightly above or slightly below some "ideal" level.

If the only thing that all the affected birds had in common, and all the unaffected birds did not share, was that they were hatched from Rudy's eggs and that they have died, then there almost has to be a connection. Some connections are direct and obvious (genetic defects, internal organ malfunctions, etc), and some are indirect and less obvious (increased susceptibility to certain viral/bacterial/parasitic diseases, certain behavior traits that make them more likely to be exposed to danger than other chicks, etc). Even though statistics can be HIGHLY altered when using numbers less that 30, it is very unlikely that you would get a 100% fatality rate within 24 hours from genetic defects or shared congenital organ malfunctions. Typically those issues have high death rates in the first few days, up to 2-3 weeks, but then there is a wide range of lifespans in the survivors, depending on how severely the problem is impacting each animal. 100% fatality within 24 hours at 5 weeks of age doesn't fit that pattern. You're looking for something that has a very high death rate very quickly, but is selective based on either increased susceptiblity or increased exposure. Since all the chicks were in the same pen, but only the "Rudy chicks" were affected, any exposure differences would most likely be due to either behavior traits (more aggressive foraging dug up something dangerous, better flying ability took them somewhere the others couldn't reach, different taste tolerances made them accept or desire a toxic plant that the other chicks wouldn't eat, etc) or coincidence (the chicks were all socializing together in a clique when a small swarm of insects recently sprayed by poison flew into the pen, etc).

I hope you figure out what happened. Please let the rest of us know if you find out.

--April

 

[ki4got]

Hi Ki4got,
I'm so sorry that you lost those chicks. When chicks have that much potential, it hurts our breeding program, and our hearts.

Have you sent them in to be necropsied (an autopsy, but for animals)? That can sometimes give you important answers. It can be done quite cheaply in many areas of the country, where it is often subsidized by either private industry (which doesn't want a multimillion dollar chicken industry wiped out by a contagious disease from someone's backyard flock) or by the dept. of agriculture. You can contact the Virginia Tech, Virginia-Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine (540-231-7666, talk to the pathology dept first, then if needed the poultry science dept), or your state dept of agriculture, or your county agricultural extension office to see who could do the necropsy and what your cost would be. The last chicks I had done were only $10, and the necropsies were very thorough. If you do want to have them necropsied, put them in the refrigerator immediately (not the freezer), and transport them to the necropsy facility ASAP in a cooler with ice packs. The necropsy will be less accurate with every day that passes, so this is very time sensitive.

If I understand the situation properly, you had a larger number of chicks (how many chicks total?, all the same breed? all the same age?) in a grow pen with green forage (but not free range yet), and you lost all 4 (2 male, 2 female) of the 5 wk old chicks out of eggs you got from Rudy. None of the other chicks were sick or died, but all of the "Rudy chicks" died. They were being fed 20% chick crumble from a small mill that does not produce medicated feed (which likely rules out accidental poisoning from the mill). They were normal until 24 hours or less prior to death, and were not sickly chicks that had been growing poorly. Their symptoms shortly prior to death were vocalizing, hunching, and lethargy (painful?). And you are an experienced chick raiser that has hatched and raised hundreds (?) of chicks successfully.

If the above circumstances are accurate, then it is not reasonable to blame this on nutrition. It is standard to raise chicks on 14-24% protein, with different levels being used for different purposes, different breeds, and different ages. (I know that many people will strongly disagree with my range -- that's ok. Anything outside of 16-20% is usually for very specific goals.) But regardless of your "protein philosophy," you don't see acute death in multiple birds by feeding slightly above or slightly below some "ideal" level.

If the only thing that all the affected birds had in common, and all the unaffected birds did not share, was that they were hatched from Rudy's eggs and that they have died, then there almost has to be a connection. Some connections are direct and obvious (genetic defects, internal organ malfunctions, etc), and some are indirect and less obvious (increased susceptibility to certain viral/bacterial/parasitic diseases, certain behavior traits that make them more likely to be exposed to danger than other chicks, etc). Even though statistics can be HIGHLY altered when using numbers less that 30, it is very unlikely that you would get a 100% fatality rate within 24 hours from genetic defects or shared congenital organ malfunctions. Typically those issues have high death rates in the first few days, up to 2-3 weeks, but then there is a wide range of lifespans in the survivors, depending on how severely the problem is impacting each animal. 100% fatality within 24 hours at 5 weeks of age doesn't fit that pattern. You're looking for something that has a very high death rate very quickly, but is selective based on either increased susceptiblity or increased exposure. Since all the chicks were in the same pen, but only the "Rudy chicks" were affected, any exposure differences would most likely be due to either behavior traits (more aggressive foraging dug up something dangerous, better flying ability took them somewhere the others couldn't reach, different taste tolerances made them accept or desire a toxic plant that the other chicks wouldn't eat, etc) or coincidence (the chicks were all socializing together in a clique when a small swarm of insects recently sprayed by poison flew into the pen, etc).

I hope you figure out what happened. Please let the rest of us know if you find out.

--April

Thanks for your suggestions, and it did occur to me to have them necropsied, but unfortunately i'm having some physical issues of my own (immune mediated joint problems not officially diagnosed yet), so the chicks have joined countless others in the county landfill.

i tend to blame a bug or multiples, as they have been seen jumping at all sorts of flying insects, including wasps and bees, while the other chicks would wait for the hapless cricket or grasshopper. (and usually lose that to the dorkings as well).

as for insecticide or other chemical, that isn't too likely since i'm more than half mile from the nearest house, and i know the other neighbors don't use chemicals on their cattle. 250 acres of pasture surround 2 sides of my property, and another 80 acres of wood to the west and 20 to the south. bugs we have. LOL plenty.

 

[3riverschick]

Hi April,
I ws thinking about those chicks the other lister had whch died last night. Was surfing the web for "hunched lethargic chicks died". I don't rightly remember where I came across it, or what the illness was, but I ran across one (or more?) problems which were transmited in the egg. It seemed so unlikely to me,I didn't make a note of it. Now I wonder if it could be a possibility. I don't know, just throwing it out there. Please everyone, don't go throwing stones at anyone. I am just wondering.
Best,
karen