B.Y.C. Dorking Club!

[3riverschick]

Hi,
I can't use ivermectin products here because I have collies. Any ideas what to use instead of it and in addition to the Sevin?
Thanks,
Karen in western PA, USA

 

[ki4got]

Hi,
I can't use ivermectin products here because I have collies. Any ideas what to use instead of it and in addition to the Sevin?
Thanks,
Karen in western PA, USA

as long as you're not dosing the collies directly, it shouldn't be a problem (don't feed eggs or meat for 30 days). the amount you're giving each chicken is negligible compared to what it would take to dose a normal collie-sized dog. (yes i'm aware of the problems of collies and sight-hounds and ivermectin.)

personally, we eat the eggs even from treated hens, but then none of us (people or dogs) are sensitive to ivermectin... so as long as the dogs aren't licking the birds, or eating eggs/meat, i would say contact with the drug is going to be negligible.

as far as lice/mites/worms/etc. nothing else individually is going to be very effective, tho sevin does work ok on mites and lice. but it would require direct dusting or making sure they use the dustbath/sandbox...

 

[3riverschick]

Thanks so much for the helpful info, I really appreciate it!
Best,
Karen

 

[lceh]

Hey Karen in PA,
I love collies! I lost my sweet smooth collie several years ago but he was a wonderful dog.

Re: mites/lice/etc., we had our first run-in with them this spring after 3 years of chicken-keeping. My kids are always handling the birds, plus I was pregnant, so I wasn't eager to have Sevin dust all over them, you know? I had visions of toxic chicken powderpuffs. Plus my close neighbor has honeybees and I didn't want to risk hurting them. These were DD's show birds, so I asked a poultry judge what effective, less messy alternatives there are. He swears by Frontline, so that's what I used. NOT the Frontline Plus you put on the dogs, but the Frontline spray (like this: http://www.1800petmeds.com/Frontline+Spray-prod10236.html). I shopped around for the cheapest price online. Anyway, her Ameraucana bantams had a pretty bad mite issue and we used an eyedropper to apply 1 drop to the skin (not the feathers!) between the shoulders and another just above the vent (for large fowl use an additional drop, for a total of 3 drops). Presto! No more external parasites of any kind within 3 days, and it lasts 30-45 days. It doesn't treat for internal parasites though.

Do bear in mind, however, that Frontline is not approved for use in poultry, so there are no "official" egg withdrawal times. Since her show birds are housed separately and were the only ones treated it was easy to pull out and toss their eggs. We followed a 28-day withdrawal period just to be on the safe side. I do not think I would use it on meat birds though.

Good luck!

 

[pysankigirl]

Thanks.

I'm a little bruised right now because we had a predator& eat kill one of my goats on Thursday: Gimley. He was only 5 months old. So I am waiting for the shock of it to wear off before I make any final decisions. but I am watching him.

 

[capayvalleychick]

Karen and Iceh (since you have ES), not all collies & collie related breeds have the sensitivity to ivermectin. There is a gene (MDR1) that only some dogs carry, that causes the sensitivity. You can have your dogs tested to see if they have the gene. Here is the info:

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vcpl/

I had my ES tested and they do not have the gene. And Karen is right about the risk being low, even if they do have the gene.

pysankigirl, I'm so sorry about your goat!

Kim

 

[Sydney Acres]

Hey Karen in PA,
I love collies! I lost my sweet smooth collie several years ago but he was a wonderful dog.

Re: mites/lice/etc., we had our first run-in with them this spring after 3 years of chicken-keeping. My kids are always handling the birds, plus I was pregnant, so I wasn't eager to have Sevin dust all over them, you know? I had visions of toxic chicken powderpuffs. Plus my close neighbor has honeybees and I didn't want to risk hurting them. These were DD's show birds, so I asked a poultry judge what effective, less messy alternatives there are. He swears by Frontline, so that's what I used. NOT the Frontline Plus you put on the dogs, but the Frontline spray (like this: http://www.1800petmeds.com/Frontline+Spray-prod10236.html). I shopped around for the cheapest price online. Anyway, her Ameraucana bantams had a pretty bad mite issue and we used an eyedropper to apply 1 drop to the skin (not the feathers!) between the shoulders and another just above the vent (for large fowl use an additional drop, for a total of 3 drops). Presto! No more external parasites of any kind within 3 days, and it lasts 30-45 days. It doesn't treat for internal parasites though.

Do bear in mind, however, that Frontline is not approved for use in poultry, so there are no "official" egg withdrawal times. Since her show birds are housed separately and were the only ones treated it was easy to pull out and toss their eggs. We followed a 28-day withdrawal period just to be on the safe side. I do not think I would use it on meat birds though.

Good luck!

Hi Everyone,

I agree that Frontline Spray is very effective against mites, HOWEVER, I would not recommend using it in chickens. I am a veterinarian. Years ago I had a client who was also a personal friend. She brought her flock in to see me at the clinic, and the mites were so bad that the birds were pale from anemia. I initially told her how happy I'd been with the effect of Frontline Spray on mites when I worked at a wildlife rescue clinic. Every pigeon/dove had mites, and one spray took care of them almost immediately. She asked me if there was any risk, since these birds were her daughter's lifeline right then -- he had set up the coop and bought her the chickens 2 years ago, and he had recently died in a car accident. This was a situation where NO risk was acceptable. Not knowing the sensitivity of chickens specifically, as opposed to thousands of problem-free doses on wild pigeons and other species, I called Merial, the manufacturer of Frontline Spray. When a member of the public calls and asks these questions, they just tell you not to use it if it's not been cleared for that species. They can't afford the liability if the untested recommendation doesn't work out. But when another veterinarian calls, they put their veterinarian on the phone and there's often a long conversation about old research and common usage. Well, the bottom line was that there's a lot of non-published research on Frontline Spray on a large number of different bird species. Most birds it's quite safe on, even at high doses. And there are some that it's quite poisonous on. But chickens are in the middle ground. The therapeutic range is quite narrow in many chickens (which means that the dose it takes to kill or harm the bird is only slightly higher than the dose it takes to kill the mites). The veterinarian from Merial said that many people use Frontline Spray on chickens with no obvious problems, but that many others end up with dead birds. He STRONGLY recommended not using it on birds that you care about, just in case your birds are more sensitive than others.

I use the injectable ivermectin (made for cattle) in my birds, but I give it orally. (Please note: I am not making a medication recommendation. Since none of you are my clients, I cannot legally prescribe to your birds without a doctor/patient/client relationship. I am only sharing with you what I give my own birds. What I do is off label (non-FDA approved) usage. There is no established withdrawal time on meat or eggs for ivermectin in chickens. I hate all this legal stuff, but it's the world we live in.) The dose range is huge, with most references citing 0.2 - 0.4 mg/kg, but Gail Damerow (The Chicken Health Handbook) recommends giving 0.25 ml (2.5 mg) to large birds, which is a much higher (and I assume safe, unless there's a typo) dose. But I've always wanted to use the pour-on solution instead. Ki4got, does it ever cause any irritation to the skin?? If you've checked the area for irritation once daily for at least a week after application on a large number of birds, I'd love to know about it so I can switch on my own birds. If there's a risk of skin irritation, then I'll stick with the oral route, which is easy.

--April

 

[ki4got]

Hi Everyone,

I agree that Frontline Spray is very effective against mites, HOWEVER, I would not recommend using it in chickens. I am a veterinarian. Years ago I had a client who was also a personal friend. She brought her flock in to see me at the clinic, and the mites were so bad that the birds were pale from anemia. I initially told her how happy I'd been with the effect of Frontline Spray on mites when I worked at a wildlife rescue clinic. Every pigeon/dove had mites, and one spray took care of them almost immediately. She asked me if there was any risk, since these birds were her daughter's lifeline right then -- he had set up the coop and bought her the chickens 2 years ago, and he had recently died in a car accident. This was a situation where NO risk was acceptable. Not knowing the sensitivity of chickens specifically, as opposed to thousands of problem-free doses on wild pigeons and other species, I called Merial, the manufacturer of Frontline Spray. When a member of the public calls and asks these questions, they just tell you not to use it if it's not been cleared for that species. They can't afford the liability if the untested recommendation doesn't work out. But when another veterinarian calls, they put their veterinarian on the phone and there's often a long conversation about old research and common usage. Well, the bottom line was that there's a lot of non-published research on Frontline Spray on a large number of different bird species. Most birds it's quite safe on, even at high doses. And there are some that it's quite poisonous on. But chickens are in the middle ground. The therapeutic range is quite narrow in many chickens (which means that the dose it takes to kill or harm the bird is only slightly higher than the dose it takes to kill the mites). The veterinarian from Merial said that many people use Frontline Spray on chickens with no obvious problems, but that many others end up with dead birds. He STRONGLY recommended not using it on birds that you care about, just in case your birds are more sensitive than others.

I use the injectable ivermectin (made for cattle) in my birds, but I give it orally. (Please note: I am not making a medication recommendation. Since none of you are my clients, I cannot legally prescribe to your birds without a doctor/patient/client relationship. I am only sharing with you what I give my own birds. What I do is off label (non-FDA approved) usage. There is no established withdrawal time on meat or eggs for ivermectin in chickens. I hate all this legal stuff, but it's the world we live in.) The dose range is huge, with most references citing 0.2 - 0.4 mg/kg, but Gail Damerow (The Chicken Health Handbook) recommends giving 0.25 ml (2.5 mg) to large birds, which is a much higher (and I assume safe, unless there's a typo) dose. But I've always wanted to use the pour-on solution instead. Ki4got, does it ever cause any irritation to the skin?? If you've checked the area for irritation once daily for at least a week after application on a large number of birds, I'd love to know about it so I can switch on my own birds. If there's a risk of skin irritation, then I'll stick with the oral route, which is easy.

--April

<insert legal-ese> the following comments are strictly my own opinions based on research available via the internet and my own studies while a student with dreams of Vet school. this is not a recommendation or prescription for off-label use of ivermectin.</legal-ese>

I haven't noticed any skin irritation in the past. and i've also used oral (injectible) but it doesn't get rid of mites, as they don't feed on blood. I have used both injectible and pour on both as a spot on in a pinch, but it leaves a bit of a sticky spot on the skin that does seem to bother some birds. the base for the injectible is propylene glycol, since ivermectin is NOT water soluble. so mixing with water is typically ineffective, though I have read that the goat drench *may* be mixed with water. but unless it's in a base that will allow emulsification in water, I don't see it being suitable to use in the water dish. my thoughts here, it could be the drench will allow the addition of water in a short term situation intended for immediate dosing.

ok sorry got off on a tangent... i've researched ivermectin a bit more than the 'average' consumer I tend to think, and tend to err on the side of TMI at times. but now you know the why of some things.

as for dosage, i do basically .2 ml for up to 5 pound birds (or so) and .4 ml for larger (dorking-sized) birds. April is correct, in most species it's been studied on, there is a HUGE variation from effective levels to toxic levels. you could probably give them 2-3 times that dosage for a week straight and not see any effects. but i wouldn't recommend it...

I based my own dosage by comparing that per pound for cattle, and increasing it to compensate for the much higher metabolic rate of the chicken. I don't remember the specifics regarding ivermectin's half-life dosage for cattle, but I estimated roughly twice that amount for a chicken. My reasoning is that you need a certain amount in the birds system over a period of time to work on parasites. with the higher metabolism, the drug would likely be metabolized before it can affect the parasites (at the same dosage as cattle). so by increasing the dosage, you are increasing the time it takes the bird to metabolize what it was given. from personal experience and research this is what I concluded.

ok i think my tangent went off on a tangent of it's own...

ok another thought that just hit me. LOL another reason i mix the injectible with the nectar mix is because the injectible wasn't designed to be digested, so by adding the sugars to the mix, hopefully the ivermectin can survive initial digestion long enough to be absorbed and utilized.

and now you know more about ivermectin than you had hoped (or cared?) to know.

 

[4-H DuckQueen]

Hi!!

I'm a 4-Her looking to get some white or silver gray dorkings this coming spring..... does anyone know of a reputable breeder who I could get hatching eggs or day old chicks from? I would be showing them so I would like show quality. Thanks!!!

 

[ki4got]

Hi!!

I'm a 4-Her looking to get some white or silver gray dorkings this coming spring..... does anyone know of a reputable breeder who I could get hatching eggs or day old chicks from? I would be showing them so I would like show quality. Thanks!!!

hi, welcome to 'dorkingdom' ! 8) it might help to know what part of the country you're in, as we have people on this thread from all over. also if you read thru the thread, you'll find contact info for a number of breeders that may not be active online as well.