Back to Eden Gardening and Hugelkulture and other non-conventional garden methods

[lazy gardener]

If any plant material would work there, I'd try stuff with a deep tap root. Even might go so far as to plant burdock, but would have to mow it every season, and repeatedly to keep it from setting seed. And then, how do you get rid of it when it's done it's job? It's a perennial. I think that it might be a loosing battle to reclaim that area for productivity without removing that rock dust, but... what do I know???

 

[Greenthumb83]

I really hope this thread continues to grow. I would love to learn more about both these types of gardening. I am experimenting this year with new ideas (new to me). I have always just done the same thing I learned growing up and didn't want to do that anymore. I take major issue with conventional agriculture, and told myself that I was doing something good buy simply growing food. I was still tilling, keeping bare soil, etc. I was not supporting an ecosystem. So this year, that was my goal. I tried some beneficial flowers, cover planting and mulching. I'm seeing some beneficial insects (mainly ladybugs). I also started everything from seed this year for the first time. So far no major pest issues, but I am seeing a bit of calcium deficiency in my zucchini. I wish I had corrected the soil before planting...We have slightly acid soil and it's very sandy and lacking of nutrients.

I am already mapping out how I want to plant next year and keeping notes on what I want to do differently. We also have a nice batch of manure composting from our chickens (also new this year). We plan to do a cover crop for the winter but I have not decided on what yet. I was leaning to hairy vetch, but I've read the chickens can't have it?

Lot of conflicting info there.

I hope to be able to learn more from you guys. I am only scratching the surface with this, but am already so proud of what we have done. It's definitely not the gardening my Dad taught me, but even he is enjoying watching it grow.

 

[lazy gardener]

Thanks for joining us GT. My dad is also an old school gardener. In fact, he was an Ag major, and at one time sold all of the chemicals to the local orchardists. So his philosophy (no matter what the problem, and if there is no problem, do it to prevent a problem) is: SPRAY IT!!! Needless to say, we have some interesting conversations. Never arguments! Just different approaches. He just shakes his head when I tell him what I'm doing in my orchard. Says the trees will be decimated by disease and insects. But, I have tons of respect for that man. He can grow a 3# tomato in the middle of a gravel driveway.

Which brings me to my second point. There is no shame in doing what you have to do to get a good crop. While organic is good, and that is the direction I'm headed, I will use fertilizer on an as needed basis, and will choose the least toxic insecticide. Pyrethrin/permethrin, Sluggo are my go-to products. I am not above judicious use of Sevin. But, when I use these products, I keep the poultry away from my garden. Better to have a crop with minimum chemical application in your own yard. You know what was put on it, and when... than to buy grocery produce that has had the most toxic of the toxic dumped on it in copious amounts.

I planted some dent corn and sorghum seedlings in the orchard a couple of weeks ago. Also planted some squash seedlings. The squash died due to neglect (I didn't get some water on it in a timely fashion) But that dent corn and sorghum have greened up nicely (after looking like it was going to go the way of the squash. I did not water that either!) They are putting on nice growth. The crops in the garden are looking better than ever before. I'm picking radish that are 5" long, super mild, not a sign of root maggot that is so typical for summer crops. The squash in the HK is running and budding nicely now. Lots of cucumber beetles, and beginning issues with squash bugs. I water deeply with a hose, and those squash bugs come boiling up out of the soil under the plants. I then gather them, and squish them. I've only put insecticide on the squash once, and feel that the plants will out grow the cucumber beetles. I wonder what kind of damage the squash bugs are doing under ground, but at least they are not skeletonizing the leaves.

In the orchard, I'm side dressing the trees and other plants with some 3 year old chicken compost left since moving the 8 x 12 hoop coop to a new location. That stuff is incredible. I have used 5 WB full in various locations, and probably have an other 3 - 4 more available. This will be the last fertilizing in the orchard, since we've passed the summer solstice.

 

[Greenthumb83]

Thanks for the warm welcome! Hearing about your Dad made me smile. Sounds a lot like my Dad! I get the head shake a lot too....especially when we get to talking about his plants and I ask something like, "Oh is that an heirloom plant?" He will respond with something like, "It's a tomato plant, I don't know!" He also offers Sevin any time I say something about a bug.

I am not against using it if needed. I sure would rather do that than lose a crop! At the end of the day, we both enjoy gardening and I can tell he is enjoying seeing my style unfold, even though it's different than his.

When my beans, sunflowers and squash first started taking off, I noticed a lot of damage on the leaves. I never got to see the culprits though. I planted marigolds, in between all my squash and lined radishes along all my pole beans. I can't say that did the trick for certain, but I have not had any bug issues since. I also have alyssum and nasturtiums growing all over, borage in rows along my tomato plants, and forget me nots all over the place as a ground cover. Do you do much companion planting?

I have spent the better part of the day reading about this Hugelkulture. I AM SOLD! Oh my goodness. I am already the queen of saving/using everything. Now, I can use the pile of trees and logs instead of letting DH burn them! I already made a map of all the hugel beds I want to build this fall to be ready for spring. My DH is going to think I've lost my marbles when he gets home lol! We have a ton of fallen trees right now. One section of our woods (right by the coop) needs cleaned up really bad. We had to cut down several trees just to build the coop there as well. We also had a big pine fall 2 weeks ago in the storm that I'd like to use for a strawberry bed. The wheels are definitely turning...

Do you have any pics of what you've done so far? I'd love to see!

 

[lazy gardener]

Yeah, I have pics, but I'm a techno idiot. I do need to have hubby help me figure out how to get some posted. IMO, holes in leaves are not a big issue. When the leaves start to get skeletonized, then... it's time to think about doing something about it. My dad has his old favorites, and it takes some convincing to get him to try a new variety. But, once he does, it's not hard to convince him of the superiority of some of the newer (or even the heirloom) varieties. Ever tried Fortex pole beans. IMO, there is absolutely NO bean that is any where close to the Fortex for flavor, tenderness, yield, and quality. A lot of my companion planting is by happenstance. I've found that potatoes and corn make wonderful bed buddies. Garlic with strawberries. Garlic and daffodils around the orchard trees to repel voles and insects. Dill grows freely throughout my garden. Garlic stays there as a perennial crop. I let the bulbils mature, and toss them around willy-nilly. Parsley takes 2 years to set seed, then can be a forever plant in your garden. All of the umbel types of flowers attract lots of beneficial insects. Lettuce is great for re-seeding. I have marigolds, mint, lemon balm, oregano, calendula, nasturtiums growing here and there. Egyptian onions getting started. Trialing a perennial spinach substitute this year: Caucasian Mountain Spinach.

 

[Greenthumb83]

Sounds like a lovely garden. I have never tried Fortex pole beans. I am not sure what mine even are. When I first bought seeds in March, I had not put any thought into anything yet...just that I wanted to try seeds this year. I ended up buying better seeds as the weeks went on with my other plants. I will order some of those for next year.

I brought these ideas to my DH when he got home. He actually likes it! He is not so keen on the hill/mound idea, but he will come around. We want to do 5-6 HK beds all in place of our current garden, starting this fall. I hope we are able to get it done. October is a busy month of birthdays for our family, then or course fall takes over with holidays and shopping etc. September will hopefully be devoted to this. We will see lol.

So far this year, we have zucchini, butternut squash, watermelon, pumpkin, romas, heirloom beefsteaks, pole beans, bush beans, cucumbers, radishes, red and yellow onions, garlic, broccoli and then all the flowers mentioned above. We have only lived here for a year, so I can't complain. We did well for trying to start a brand new garden and building a chicken coop at the same time. We also have a toddler and 2 school age children. I love the busy days we have had for the last several months, but I'm kind of looking forward to those days snowed in with my family.

 

[lazy gardener]

If your husband is not keen on the mound idea, and you have access to heavy equipment, you could dig a nice deep trench, and lay in your dead wood, then cover it over with your soil. That would be a good way to rob Peter to pay Paul in raising the grade, leveling a slope, etc. The most important thing to consider is: how is the mound in the place you are considering putting it going to affect the existing drainage, or lack of drainage. Is it going to help, or hinder. My HK is at the NW end of newly graded area that drops off into a very rocky no man's land that is growing up to junk. So water will naturally run off the upper yard area where my chickens are, and seep into the HK, providing natural watering. My vision for the area is to do a terrace. But, I think my energy level and age are working against me. I'll do well to get the first 8' x 40' HK done.

 

[Greenthumb83]

My Dad has a backhoe we can use when it decides to work. If not, we would have to rent one. Some of the trees we need to drag out of the pines are piled up and grown over. We will likely dig a trench also. I told him I'd meet him in the middle with the mound height and to consider how easy the picking will be. He did like that idea.

I had not thought of the water drainage. All of our soil is very sandy and drains well. The garden area is slightly higher than the surrounding yard, so it definitely does not collect water. The barn and coop are downhill of that area, but we put drainage tile under the coop (it's on a south facing slope) just as a precaution. We have had no water standing or mud issues yet. As I type this, I am wondering if in ground HK beds would be smarter for us. It would be nice not having to water the garden every other night. If we hill it up, I could see it needing frequent watering. Would the logs hold enough to water much less than normal?

 

[lazy gardener]

That is one of the benefits of HK, also of BTE. The wood of the HK, especially if buried in a trench, holds water well, and dispenses it slowly. With BTE, the chips hold moisture well, but they can also work to advantage in the other direction. If your soil tends to be too wet, the chips will trap the extra water and hold it, to help prevent the underlying soil from becoming water logged.

 

[Greenthumb83]

Awesome. I do think we will end up doing trenches. DH decided to clear an area by hand last night and got a big pile of brush to haul over to garden area. This is going to be a fun project for all of us, because every area we clear is more room for the kids to play. When we moved here, the property had been abandoned for 10 years or more. So many acres just went to pasture, including the area we have the garden now. It was all thorns and raspberries and weed. We will be fighting them for years to come. Same with the coop area; taken over by white poplars and those things just won't quit lol.

I think our HK beds will still be elevated a bit, but not too far up. I would like to do one hill that is very big, and about waist level with strawberries. No one likes crouching to pick strawberries. We have that huge fresh pine that fell, so that will be my little experiment. The top will be bush beans. I may even throw some garlic in, since you said it grows well together.

I had planned to use straw or grass clippings on top, but I could use wood chips also, if that would not be overkill.

I am going to try and photo document this when we start digging. I am already regretting not doing that with the coop. We have only a handful of pictures of the coop build.