Bantam hen with blue face with pale small comb and wattles

Kelp's known to bring non-layers into lay. Will be interesting to see if it does with her, if you give us an update sometime; but no pressure. :)

It can be an issue to supplement a 'nutritionally complete' diet, but I'm not sure what the ratios are in your 'nutritionally balanced' diet. It would probably be worth looking into daily nutritional maximum levels of vitamins and minerals and trace elements etc to make sure you don't overdose them on anything.

I've seen some pics of the wild fowl chickens are descended from and some of them do get pale faces when not in breeding condition, but these were all in captivity, so I'm not sure if that's why; but I've never seen a pale face in adult domestic poultry that wasn't a sign of deficiency. But then again I'm not an expert on breeds.

If all her family line have the same paleness, it could be diet or it could be genetic. If it is the diet, kelp will correct it, but if it persists after a while of kelp supplementation then it's familial, and then it remains to see if it's just coloration due to genotype or coloration due to congenital heart conditions. Many animals as well as humans carry on despite heart insufficiency or failure, seeming to be healthy. It's certainly not the happiest thing to have to weed out an entire family tree from your flock, but if they're just pets you're saved that issue. I'm still clearing out some bad genes from generations back. Sneaky things they can be! And such a shame when it's found in some otherwise great birds.

Best wishes with your flock.

Interestingly, the hen's face is more pinkish today, including her wattles and comb. She is back with the flock, being very active. So, we'll see how she fares. I am going to harvest kelp from a nearby beach and dry it for use. Some folks eat the kelp themselves here, so it probably is fine for chooks.

I keep the labels from my feed sacks. Being that it's going toward winter here in the Northern Hemisphere, I begin to taper off the layer feed (though I provide ground oyster shell in a separate tub for pullets and hens still in lay) and put the flock on a maintenance feed (the label recommends it for show birds and general flock maintenance). It has a lower percentage of protein than the other feeds, which (in my opinion) contain too much protein for mature birds. As I use the same feed for all the chickens, ducks and geese,both female and male, I have to aim toward the mid-point in protein content to avoid over-feeding of protein.

Here are some (not all) of the contents of the feed pellets: ground corn and soybean meal; grain by-products; the full spectrum of necessary amino acids, vitamins and macro- and micro- minerals (e.g. phosphate, calcium, vitamin D3, K, A, folic acid, choline, lysine, manganese, selenium, etc., etc. -- too many to list, but you know what the full B complex and other required nutrients are.); 4 species of fermentation bacilli; yeast, mineral oil, "roughage products"; vegetable oil (I hope not hydrolized or partially-hydrogenated...). The various versions of the feed range in protein content from 13% to 22%, the latter being for the chick starter and grower feeds.

The "guaranteed analysis" of nutrients for the various feeds indicates the percentages/ratios of protein, lysine, methionine, crude fat and fiber, calcium, phosphorus, salt (minimum and maximum range), vitamin A and vitamin E, but not for the other nutrients. These ratios vary with the type of feed (starter, grower, layer, maintenance, etc.).

This is a long-standing flock. I have Nankin bantams from a bloodline I introduced in 2002. Other bantam breeds I keep are more recent. Some of my birds are 7, 8 and 9 years old now, all native to my barn, and I've had bantams live 10 years or longer. My waterfowl also range in age from 4 to 13 years.They have overall been healthy and long-lived, so I figure that their diet is not an issue. More trouble has come from diseases borne by wild birds and varmints -- almost impossible to keep out of the barn and run -- and from accidental introduction of disease-carrying fowl years ago. Live and learn.

The other problem is lack of sufficient breeding stock. Nankins are fairly rare and it's difficult to get new birds. Mine have been line-bred from limited stock for too long, and probably recessive genes with bad traits are showing up more in each new generation. This year I brought in some new stock as chicks, but they turned out to be less than ideal, so I am in a quandary as to how to refresh the gene pool.

Anyway, I really appreciate your and Eggcessive's help and insights, and I will incorporate your dietary recommendations. I figure that anything I can do to reduce stress on the flock, may help even though they likely have some genetic and congenital strikes against them.
 
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Quote: Mineral oil is definitely not recommendable as a dietary source of oil. In my experience it's generally something you give only rarely in emergencies to purge an animal of toxins, and it strips the animal of some nutrients in doing so. Strange to hear it's added as a feedstuff!

Also, 'vegetable oil' is another one worth avoiding. It's generally made from mixed waste byproducts; only very rarely are they named, and of course it's never cold pressed, and has been linked to heart disease in humans. It's a fallacy that it's healthy.

Canola oil is another one to avoid, linked to many health problems; it's an industrial lubricant which is actually classified as a toxin. Some studies link soybean meal to cancer, which I theorize would be more due to the seriously nasty chemicals used on the crop rather than the plant itself.

Also, many commercial poultry feeds use the very cheapest (often synthetic) nutrients, which do not behave the same in the body. Most added tocopherols in all commercial foods, whether for any animal species or human, are of the dangerous sort: dl tocopherol. D tocopherol is the good one, but DL is the most common and cheapest and often results in hardened, damaged veins and cysts as the body isolates and rejects the unnatural oil en mass. Of course, some individuals are far more sensitive/ susceptible than others. There's a joke that goes like this: the 'dl' in dl tocopherol stands for '**** lumps!'

One benefit of olive oil is that it's remarkably good at sealing the gut off from bad oils. Whatever goes in first every day, good raw oils or negative hyper-processed ones, tends to take up temporary residence and prevent the absorption of its opposite counterpart. Cold-pressed olive oil protects the gut from absorbing the worst aspects of many negative food items, not just over-processed oils. Without changing the current diet other than adding olive oil, you should see a noticeable difference not too long down the track, but adding kelp and garlic too should help a lot.

Having seen what changes kelp produced in successive generations of offspring from the same parents, pre and post kelp, as well as post-kelp again in some I took off kelp for a while to gauge the extent of its influence, I think it's possible you may reinvigorate your genepool with the Nankins if using kelp. It causes different genes to be expressed and passed on to offspring. The best chicks I ever hatched were always from parents who'd been on kelp all their lives, but even being on kelp for a few months pre-breeding made a visible difference.

Anyway, best wishes, hope these new additives give you the same results they did in my flock.
 
Yes, I was puzzled by the mineral oil as well, and concerned about the vegetable oils. And, I am certain that many of the ingredients are by-products of the agricultural industry and not subject to government inspection for purity or cleanliness. That's a given. Although, the feeds that are designated for layers and birds to be used as meat must measure up to U.S. government standards, as any birds containing toxins would be presumed to pass them along to humans through their meat and eggs.

Unless one buys the raw materials for feed from local organic farms, it is pretty much impossible to construct poultry feed that is 100% wholesome and unadulterated with pesticides, herbicides and other toxins. That's the price we pay for having high-yield agriculture feeding hundreds of millions of people. I would have to buy human-grade grains and vitamin additives to make home-made feed, and the cost would be prohibitive. So, I provide these feed pellets as a dietary base and add as many supplementary human-grade or wild-harvested foods as I can. My flock gets local weeds, kitchen scraps, etc.

Your information has been extremely valuable and I am archiving all of it for current and future use. Thanks so much for being such a wonderful and willing resource!
 
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You're welcome. :)

Regarding the issue of feed costs versus health, it definitely is an issue for many, but some folks are starting to see the business opportunity in organic feeds; really it only costs more to produce organics if people are doing it wrong, lol. The more people get into organics, the cheaper it gets. Now, around here, you can get human feed and animal feeds including organic chook grains and pellets etc for a similar or even cheaper price than the non-organic alternative. I hope this is also achieved in other countries too. It's strange to be able to buy fruit, veg etc cheaper when it's organic, but it's good! But a lot of people don't know the prices have dropped on so many items, still, and automatically shy away from organics shops.

Best wishes.
 
She's completely cured and back to her perky self and out of the sickbay coop. The dark blue (bluish-green!) face and wattles are now her normal pale whitish color again. I'm going to say it was a mineral/electrolyte deficiency as she has been a picky eater, going for the bird seed scratch grain and not enough nutritionally balanced poultry pellets. So, I'll have to make sure that she gets a vitamin-mineral supplement in her water at least once a week. The flock should be getting that anyway. I can't monitor how much of the pellets everyone is eating.

I only had her on antibiotics for four days as they didn't seem to be doing anything but making her feel crappier... I took her off penicillin and hand fed her cultured yoghurt with bread to restore the good gut flora. Kept her in her infirmary cage for a week, with a heat lamp because we were getting some freezing weather and I didn't want that to stress her more. Once she was all better, she moved away from the heat. This evening, she couldn't wait to get out of the cage and up onto her usual night roost.

I'm posting these notes in case anyone has this happen to their chickens and needs to see some options.
Glad she is looking up! Thanks for posting your notes...I feel like I learn something new every time I am on this site (whether it pertains to me at the time or not...it's always good to know things to watch out for and how to deal with them)
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JesNFlock,
The posts that chooks4life and Eggcessive contributed are worth saving for future reading. That kind of information is worth its weight in gold.
 
JesNFlock,
The posts that chooks4life and Eggcessive contributed are worth saving for future reading. That kind of information is worth its weight in gold.
I certainly agree with you! In the 2 months I've been doing this, I have read about so many different things (good & bad) that can happen or you can do for chickens! It is Amazing!
 
Quote: Glad you appreciate the info, but I can take almost no credit since I learnt the majority of it from others in the first place (thanks Mum!) ;)

Some books to check out for natural alternatives (which have worked the majority of the time I've had the courage to try them) include anything by Juliette de Bairacli Levy and Pat Coleby; there are others but those are a good start.

Best wishes.
 
Well, no one is born knowing these things; we have to learn them from from someone else and gain wisdom from our own experience. Sharing what you've learned both from others and from your own experience, is what I really appreciate.
 

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