Barbu D'Anvers color question. Silver Quail?

I will chime in here. First, correct me if I’m wrong, but it doesn’t look like this is US stock. Most US Watermaal are e^+ based but Mille Fleur can be on any of three bases: e^wh, e^+, or e^b, depending on where the pattern was originally acquired from in the formation of the Mille Fleur Barbu de Watermael that was used to create your boy. Most US sources (I’m going with what is said in the Facebook Mille Fleur breeding forums) identify e^b as producing the most even and controlled color patterns of Mille Fleur, and it is likely many Mille Fleur patterns are based on this foundation worldwide (esp in Europe, where the color tends to be more highly perfected). As such, Mille Fleur varieties specifically might be more likely to have an e^b base even if all the other varieties in the breed do not. As for the base of your silver boy’s dad, he could be either wild type e^+, or brown e^b and I wouldn’t be able to tell you with certainty one way or another. For what we are dealing with, it is rather inconsequential whether he is one or the other as most Columbian based color patterns are close to identical on either e^b or e^+ with minor differences (I’m going on what breeders have told me here, as my first hand experience with Mille Fleur is limited, but I more frequently encounter these two different bases in quail patterns). In the quail varieties, if they aren’t nearly identical, I sure have a hard time distinguishing them for sure without test breeding. It could just be that my known sample sizes of each are very small. I generally see smudgier lacing in the few e^b based quail I have identified, but I doubt these differences would have any relevance to Mille Fleur. Anyway, back to that Mille Fleur sire: I don’t suspect wheaten with him because his gold is nice and even through the hackles (something wheaten tends to disrupt when it is a base).

Now for the other modifiers: Since Db (the dominant gene that causes black tailed buff) restricts black in the hackle and black is actually desired here in moderation (check out the black striping in the hackle of the sire- his markings are more indicative of a Columbian genotype, not necessarily replaced nor accompanied by Db), and to my knowledge Db is not a common gene in Mille Fleur varieties. Most likely you are dealing only with Columbian modifiers from both parents, but it is possible one parent carried Db… just not as likely if the mom was a silver Columbian. It is true the two can be difficult to tell apart except in the presence of Birchen, but quantity and clarity of black striping in the hackles of homozygotes can be a good indicator as well. Note if this bird is a carrier of Db, I would guess a heterozygote.

Pattern genes: ok, mottled is a recessive pattern modifier but it is notorious for partial expression in a heterozygous state. Most frequently this manifests as white spotting in the wings and around the head in the second year but a single copy it CAN be responsible for some spangle like patterns that lack the white tips as well (I have seen this in accidental mottled quail I hatched out of mottled before). Mottled is thus a simple recessive that is genetically distinct from Spangled, but the two can sometimes have some similar effects. I have not actually heard of it (spangled) being carried in Mille Fleur or other mottled patterns before. I have spent a lot of time on genetic forums and recently quite a bit of time lurking in the Mille Fleur breeders FB groups because I have a trio of Mille Fleur d’Anvers and I always dig in even if I have a variety I do not intend to pursue in depth- so if this is common it surprises me that I haven’t yet heard of it. So, Mille Fleur is simply a gold Columbian on a wild type or brown base that carries a mottling gene. Spangled is typically Melanotic and the Pattern gene coupled with a Db modifier. If Columbian is present instead of Db you typically get partial half-moon lacing in the heterozygous form, which can look like spangles. In your boy they definitely look more like spangles than mottled spots, but this just wouldn’t be likely with the silver Columbian mother you are proposing. The question would be… where on Earth would Pg and Ml come from if the mother was actually silver Columbian??? Mille Fleur certainly shouldn’t carry them so they would have to come from the mom. Judging by the son (your silver quail boy), he definitely has at least Melanotic to give that heavy black in the hackles and saddle, and that certainly didn’t come from daddy. So, the question remains, what did the mom actually look like? I know there are silver laced Watermaal overseas- is this a possibility? If so, then this boy makes much more sense coming from one of those silver laced than a silver Columbian. Please note silver laced may simply be called “silver”. If your silver quail boy had actually come from a silver Columbian hen I would expect to be looking mostly at a silver Columbian cock with brassy yellow leakage due to the one gold gene in your boy and that is just not what I see. I see a partial spangled silver quail.

So, my conclusion is one of two possibilities: a hyper-melanized Columbian dam x Mille Fleur Barbu de Watermael to yield a genotype something like the following:
E^+, e^b or some combination
mo, MO^+ to show some black
S, s^+ leaky silver
ML, ml^+ to show melanization
And everything else the “+” versions

The other possibility is that mom is actually silver laced (like a silver Sebright) and the genotype is more like:
E^R, e^+ or e^b
Db, db^+ to cover up Birchen
Co, Co Columbian from both sides
ML, ml^+ to put dark striping in hackles and partial spangles
Pg, pg^+ to combine with ML and form half lacing/partial spangles
S, s^+ to make leaky yellow silver
Everything else the default “+” versions.
 
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hyper-melanized Columbian dam
Like a weird silver quail?

Sigrid Van Doort believes the best Mille Fleurs ("civilized Mille Fleurs" as she calls them) are spangled, originating from Sablepoots. Sablepoots are usually mottled but occasionally some spangled can be seen.
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This is of course her opinion and I don't know if it's true.
 
Hi all,

Thank you again for the replies.

I had to take time to do some research on all the that was said. I'm slowly understanding more about millefleur, spangled, base, co, pg, ml and db genetics. Still not super familiar, as it would be easier to learn with examples, but I do get the general idea. Also, now that the roo is with me, I took more pictures of him. And I have a picture of the dam, but only a head/breast shot. I'm asking the breeder for better pictures of the mother.

So to summarize, assuming he is e^b or e+ with Ss+, the two options for him is either a golden columbian which would be Coco with Mlml and carrying mo. The Co gives the black tail, and the Ml makes the hackles darker. The Ml and the one recessive mo gene may be responsible for the weird spangle patterning. Could heterozygous Coco also cause all the black in the breast?

Or a golden spangled which would be Coco, Dbdb, Pgpg, Mlml, carrying mo. The Dbdb, Pgpg and Mlml being responsible for the spangling. The Coco making it incomplete? Could that or the single copy of Db or the combination of Co and Db be responsible for disrupting the spangled patterning?

Maybe the millefleur sire is PgPg, MlMl and DbDb and momo. Though he doesn't really look like those 'civilized millefleurs'. What would a mottled quail look like? Just wondering because Barbu's often come in quail. That would at least explain the Ml in my roo.

I found this site with silver millefleur Barbu's. https://www.ukkelsebaardkriel.be/silvermillefleur.php
The roos do look like my male with better formed spangles and mottling.

As for the dam, she seems to have very little black in the neck area, maybe she has both Co and Db ? What would Co and Db look like together? Am I right that a Db only hen would have back stippling kind of like a quail? Also it seems unlikely that she would have Ml.

Not sure if this would matter, but where I am, most Anvers and Watermael stock are interbred. I'm trying to figure out where the parents are imported from.

Finally, sorry for the confusing questions I had about spangled earlier. I had assumed spangled was a mottled laced chicken, like a tolbunt, because I think that's what they are called in some breeds/places. I now know we are talking about the spangled with black tear drop patterning.

my roo
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dam
IMG_1693.JPG
 
Like a weird silver quail?

Sigrid Van Doort believes the best Mille Fleurs ("civilized Mille Fleurs" as she calls them) are spangled, originating from Sablepoots. Sablepoots are usually mottled but occasionally some spangled can be seen.View attachment 4008998
View attachment 4008997View attachment 4008999
This is of course her opinion and I don't know if it's true.
Sigrid is usually pretty astute. I think she gets some of her information from what breeders know about their own lines. Her history on the Mille Fleur pattern is likely accurate. I don’t have access to much European stock, nor much time to experiment. We can entertain the possibility that some Mille Fleur also carry spangling genes. In that case, the results here with the extra pronounced spangling makes more sense! I have not seen these results to be similar in most American Mille Fleur crosses (most seem to be simple Columbian and mottled, which is why so many buff Columbians result from Mille Fleur d’Anvers or d’Uccle mixes). So, I would at least say that quality (civilized) Mille fleur color pattern can likely also be developed from the mottled gene without the help of spangling. Possible. Maybe not as easily controlled? Not sure.

Anyway, I always love learning something new, so thanks for adding that @Amer
 
Hi all,

Thank you again for the replies.

I had to take time to do some research on all the that was said. I'm slowly understanding more about millefleur, spangled, base, co, pg, ml and db genetics. Still not super familiar, as it would be easier to learn with examples, but I do get the general idea. Also, now that the roo is with me, I took more pictures of him. And I have a picture of the dam, but only a head/breast shot. I'm asking the breeder for better pictures of the mother.

So to summarize, assuming he is e^b or e+ with Ss+, the two options for him is either a golden columbian which would be Coco with Mlml and carrying mo. The Co gives the black tail, and the Ml makes the hackles darker. The Ml and the one recessive mo gene may be responsible for the weird spangle patterning. Could heterozygous Coco also cause all the black in the breast?

Or a golden spangled which would be Coco, Dbdb, Pgpg, Mlml, carrying mo. The Dbdb, Pgpg and Mlml being responsible for the spangling. The Coco making it incomplete? Could that or the single copy of Db or the combination of Co and Db be responsible for disrupting the spangled patterning?

Maybe the millefleur sire is PgPg, MlMl and DbDb and momo. Though he doesn't really look like those 'civilized millefleurs'. What would a mottled quail look like? Just wondering because Barbu's often come in quail. That would at least explain the Ml in my roo.

I found this site with silver millefleur Barbu's. https://www.ukkelsebaardkriel.be/silvermillefleur.php
The roos do look like my male with better formed spangles and mottling.

As for the dam, she seems to have very little black in the neck area, maybe she has both Co and Db ? What would Co and Db look like together? Am I right that a Db only hen would have back stippling kind of like a quail? Also it seems unlikely that she would have Ml.

Not sure if this would matter, but where I am, most Anvers and Watermael stock are interbred. I'm trying to figure out where the parents are imported from.

Finally, sorry for the confusing questions I had about spangled earlier. I had assumed spangled was a mottled laced chicken, like a tolbunt, because I think that's what they are called in some breeds/places. I now know we are talking about the spangled with black tear drop patterning.

my roo
View attachment 4011341
View attachment 4011342
View attachment 4011343
View attachment 4011378
dam
View attachment 4011344
I think in summary, we really don’t know other than he looks like a half spangled, half mottled, golden (dirty silver) quail. It is possible the Mille Fleur sire does carry some spangling genes to help him out with the Mille Fleur color pattern. The mom does appear to have reduced Columbian markings. Perhaps she is Db? At any rate, they are cute. 😊
 
Thanks guys.

I plan to pair him with a gold quail hen, the one in my avatar. Hoping for silver quails. I know I will get silver and gold hens, and golden and gold roos the first generation.

If he does indeed carry Db, Pg and the recessive mo, I will have to select for the cleanest looking quail progeny and breed those genes out. I think I know what to look for with Pg, in combination with Co they will be laced, with Db they will be spangled. Db on its own or the recessive mo will be harder to spot I feel...
 
Thanks guys.

I plan to pair him with a gold quail hen, the one in my avatar. Hoping for silver quails. I know I will get silver and gold hens, and golden and gold roos the first generation.

If he does indeed carry Db, Pg and the recessive mo, I will have to select for the cleanest looking quail progeny and breed those genes out. I think I know what to look for with Pg, in combination with Co they will be laced, with Db they will be spangled. Db on its own or the recessive mo will be harder to spot I feel...
The recessive mo gene is a plague, to be sure. Once a very long time ago, I tried to preserve a line of mottled Belgian d’Anvers by breeding them into my blacks. I was 17 years old and new to color breeding and tracking babies and lost track of some of my recessive carriers. The year was 2002. Some of those genes snuck into my base black line and proliferated unchecked. A few years later I realized my mistake and I selected hard to get away from the mottling as it caused spotting in the wings, spotting in the head and beard and coverts and sometimes tail. But the mottled gene was plastic and responded to selection by becoming nearly impossible to detect in a heterozygous state. We are now in 2024 and I am STILL PLAGUED by this nuisance of a gene in my black d’Anvers. All from a mistake I made 22 years ago. My mistake was ever dealing with that nuisance of a gene to begin with (okay, this is probably an over-reaction, as I can see this wouldn’t be so much of an issue with my present day methods…😁). But my irritation was re-ignited two years ago when I hatched yet another poorly marked mottled d’Anvers that I sent to a guy with some Porcelain to test breed for the mottled gene. She produced 100% mottled babies, confirming my suspicion (much to my disgust). The parents showed no signs of the gene even as three year olds grrr. It relit an inner desire within me, actually, to hunt out and exterminate this gene for good. I just purchased Mille Fleur hatching eggs last year to deal specifically with identifying mottled carriers in my blacks and dealing with this problem once and for all. So, my suggestion is maintain some pure mottled carriers and use them to test breed, keep good records and deal with it early. Don’t be like me and assume the recessive will be lost with time as long as you select against the ones that appear to be carriers.

I think Db will lead to poorer markings in quail males, so just keep selecting for good hackle markings in the boys. It is possible that Db will become naturalized in your version of quail. I think the two are very difficult to distinguish and once they are mixed together, it’s probably pretty difficult to separate them out unless you keep breeding to something that is a known carrier of only one of them. It may be a non issue. Don’t know?

The Pg would be pretty easy to spot and eliminate. Agree there.

Good luck. Silver quail is a pretty variety.
 
Thanks for the tips!

Noted on the recessive mottling being hard to get rid of! Seems like a big headache! If I do focus on a solid colored flock, I will definitely keep that in mind. I am starting a black mottled flock, and will be able to use those for future test breeding. I guess it would also help to keep mo away from silver/gold quail lines. I plan to fix the silver quail color first.

I just stumbled upon Co and Db genes mixing. The Egyptian Fayoumi breed is supposed to have both. I think the Ml would definitely complicate it though..

Anyway let's see. Excited to see what the pairing will produce!
 

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