Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[Helen in the Desert]

Keep us updated about the splash!

 

[tls_ranch]

Ok... I want to start a "debate" on the APA standards for the Barnevelder. The current US standard calls for a Laced breast in the male. But, I believe the dutch standard calls for a solid black breast or at least near solid black.

I've been looking for info on other message boards too. Here's some quotes I found about Laced vs solid breasts in Barnevelders from an Australian based message group. Apparently they have the same issue with breast lacing, but the other way around. Their roos tend to have laced breasts rather than solid breasts like the Dutch.

"There is absolutely nothing wrong in using cockerels with more colour on his breast. There is nothing written anywhere that dictates the amount of colour on the breast. Completely laced cockerels are just as acceptable as those with only a small amount of colour. Some breeders prefer using birds with much less colour as there appears to be a connection to lacing in females but there is nothing as striking as a male with a perfectly laced breast and this is my preference in the show pen (all other things being equal).

The confusion is added to when you consider the Dutch Standard calls for completely black breasts on males, another striking colour pattern and one that I would be happy to adopt (why the Dutch Standard isn't universally followed is beond me). My personal feeling is that males with only a small mount of colour on the breast fall short of both standards. Having said that I keep this type of male for use in my breeding pens for balance.

and


"I guess the main problem with our adopting the Dutch Standard is that our birds did not originate in Holland but from England where males have marked breasts.

In the whole scheme of things trying to breed better laced birds in this country is a bit like beating your head against a rock and then against the adjacent hard place. Our birds just are not well laced. Every now and again someone (often a judge) will say to me how lovely the lacing is on my birds. The problem is that I know it's rubbish! I just don't think we have the genetics in this country to come even remotely close to the lacing you see on the top Dutch birds. I'd be ecstatic to have lacing matching the depiction of a faulty feather in the Standard!

David" (David is a prominent breeder of Barnevelders hopefully I don't upset him for quoting him"


Now, for what I think..... I feel strongly that Barnevelder males with heavily laced breasts will = females with messy lacing. The lack of melanizers or in some cases Co- columbian or even e+ (wild type) is causing the red to show in the males. Co and e+ is due to outcrossing at some point to wyandottes or welsummers. The lack of melanizers= messy lacing in females.

Also, genetically a barnevelder male should not show double lacing on the breast...unless you have a mutant or henny feathered roo.

I'm not against laced breasts as my own roosters do have some breast lacing deep under their breast feathers, but the black edge is just so thick the red doesn't show. Many US females do seem to have too heavy of lacing, but it is possible to select for more of a balanced color..not too dark..not to red.

From what I've seen, most Dutch Barnevelder roos have more solid black breasts too and the females have nice "balanced" lacing to go along with it. I would be against developing pullet/cockerel breeding lines... that kind of system just causes too much confusion to the general public.

Should we attempt to change the US APA breed standards???? I don't know...But, Barnevelders are more of a DUTCH breed...not British. Also, The Marans group got the APA to set standards to reflect the "true" breed standard of the "French Marans".

I'm going to try to get in contact with some Dutch breeders to see what they say about Black vs Laced breasts in males. I have yet to track down any of the books on Barnevelder breeding, but I think Andy has some...maybe he can add some info.

I would LOVE to hear from anyone who has info on this subject

Trisha

I got some more info from one of the original importers/breeders of Barnevelders to the US. He was kind enough to contact the Dutch Barnevelder club about the issue of lacing in the male's breast.

He said that the Dutch do not want lacing in Barnevelder rooster's breasts. Males with lacing cause the females to have poor inner lacing. I will see if I can share the photos and hopefully a power point presentation on the issue from the Dutch club (language may be an issue though). The Dutch want a solid black breast with only a little lacing on the sides or thighs. The males with solid black breasts produce the females with better lacing.

Current European standards are being set/influenced by the Germans because they are one of the most active groups for showing. But, Germans have a lot of problems with lacing in the female Barnevelder due to their standard of males with breast lacing. There is a similar issue with Welsummer's standard as well between the Dutch and Germans. If you've ever seen a picture of a German Barnevelder they look WAY different than the Dutch lines in color and type.

Now, I would say in my opinion that since the Barnevelder is a Dutch breed...we should try to breed towards the Dutch standard. But, I understand that the current APA standard is based on the European standard.


Trisha

 

[tls_ranch]

Wow, another splash chick hatched! Now I have 3 splash chicks and 3 "dark" chicks. 2 more eggs have pipped with one left to go. The last egg was set a few days after the others so it will be the last to hatch.

Trisha

 

[ChickenExtreme]

Here's the 2 splash chicks and 3 of the other chicks.There's still a few eggs to go maybe I'll get another splash

Wonder if they are girls or boys? Obviously the 2 chicks behind them are boys

These splash chicks are darker and more "barnie" like in color than my first splash chick. That chick didn't turn out to be double laced because it's mother had Co in her (2nd gen hen). These are 3rd x4th generation blue and should be double laced.

edited to add: They are a bit small because they are from "pullet" eggs. But, hopefully they will grow well. I had a pullet that outgrew all her hatch mates this year and she was from a small "pullet" egg, LOL.

Trisha

Those are some beautiful chicks

 

[Totalcolour]

To Lace on not to Lace, that is the question.​

Well, I'm new to Barnevelders. However, since it is a Dutch breed, I shall breed to the Dutch standard. When I had Arabian horses, I bred to the "desert" standard, rather than the Polish (popular at that time).

I'm not sure that in the grand scheme of things it really matters, BUT, if the lacing on the females deteriorates when there is a heavily laced male, then I think keeping the males with solid breasts would be advisable. That way you won't run into problems with the hens' lacing.

Since I don't plan on showing them, lacing or not won't really matter. My cockerel (BOB) is pure Johan, and from what I've been told, quite a nice boy. He doesn't have lacing (if he does I don't see it). I'm looking forward to some nice chicks next spring. Actually, I have 18 eggs in the incubator right now, but from a different cockerel. I'm quite anxious to see how they turn out. Hopefully some nice girls to breed to "BOB". Only 2 more weeks to lockdown (I just hate all this waiting).

 

[pickledchicken]

I got some more info from one of the original importers/breeders of Barnevelders to the US. He was kind enough to contact the Dutch Barnevelder club about the issue of lacing in the male's breast.

He said that the Dutch do not want lacing in Barnevelder rooster's breasts. Males with lacing cause the females to have poor inner lacing. I will see if I can share the photos and hopefully a power point presentation on the issue from the Dutch club (language may be an issue though). The Dutch want a solid black breast with only a little lacing on the sides or thighs. The males with solid black breasts produce the females with better lacing.

Current European standards are being set/influenced by the Germans because they are one of the most active groups for showing. But, Germans have a lot of problems with lacing in the female Barnevelder due to their standard of males with breast lacing. There is a similar issue with Welsummer's standard as well between the Dutch and Germans. If you've ever seen a picture of a German Barnevelder they look WAY different than the Dutch lines in color and type.

Now, I would say in my opinion that since the Barnevelder is a Dutch breed...we should try to breed towards the Dutch standard. But, I understand that the current APA standard is based on the European standard.


Trisha

X2 I favor the Barnies just for the lacing, that was what originally drew me to them ! I will follow the Dutch standard I want the nice lacing in my flock.

 

[pickledchicken]

To Lace on not to Lace, that is the question.​

Well, I'm new to Barnevelders. However, since it is a Dutch breed, I shall breed to the Dutch standard. When I had Arabian horses, I bred to the "desert" standard, rather than the Polish (popular at that time).

I'm not sure that in the grand scheme of things it really matters, BUT, if the lacing on the females deteriorates when there is a heavily laced male, then I think keeping the males with solid breasts would be advisable. That way you won't run into problems with the hens' lacing.

Since I don't plan on showing them, lacing or not won't really matter. My cockerel (BOB) is pure Johan, and from what I've been told, quite a nice boy. He doesn't have lacing (if he does I don't see it). I'm looking forward to some nice chicks next spring. Actually, I have 18 eggs in the incubator right now, but from a different cockerel. I'm quite anxious to see how they turn out. Hopefully some nice girls to breed to "BOB". Only 2 more weeks to lockdown (I just hate all this waiting).

X2 again I say we stick with the Dutch standards

 

[pickledchicken]

Trisha Thanks for the pics they are gorgeous little fluffy butts ! I can't wait to see the splash as they mature that should be exciting indeed.

 

[Totalcolour]

X2 again I say we stick with the Dutch standards

I think that if EVERYTHING was standardised around the world, life would be so much less complicated.

Recipes - grams/kilograms instead of ounces and pounds

distances - kilometers instead of miles

Temperature - Fahrenheit instead of Celcius (I know some prefer Celsius, but Fahrenheit is actually more accurate)

Litres instead of gallons

Chicken, dog, horse, rabbit, cat breeds etc. One standard - I can dream!

 

[pysankigirl]

okay so please pardon my ignorance, but why are the two chicks behind them "obviously" male?

I am going to pick up my new barnevelder chicks next weekend, and if ther is a way to tell, I'd love to know it.

the splash chicks are cute...what are you hoping they will grow into...blue laced? (I am coming into this conversation late, obviously)