Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[Bluehenhatchery.com]

If you have tried to get barnevelders at all you will find they are hard to find. Myself and other Barnevelder breeders see the need to improve egg color and keep the gene pool stong by helping each other and moving toward a bird that lays in good numbers with a dark egg. We would also like to see a defind double lace in these birds. Thanks to all who have had input of any kind lets work together to make this breed as great as we all know it can be. To all that my of seen the old thread dont worry that will not happen here all are welcome and any question will be considered a good one, and dont worry no chips on my shoulder.

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

The tone in this discussion is disconcerting, to say the least. How about taking a deep, deep breath and simply agree to disagree. The SOP description is what it is, and if it needs changing, then there is a process that must be followed. That's quite simple. Meanwhile, judges are supposed to follow the SOP in placing birds, which should also be quite simple--though one often sees examples of the opposite, at least as concerns Barnevelders and Welsummers.
As concerns the qualifying meet, there are a few facts that are being misrepresented. For one thing, more than half of the birds shown came from Horst and me. My birds represented three "lines": the one originated from birds acquired from Horst, the second originated from birds that I got from Lowell Barber (whose birds were hatched out of eggs out of the Netherlands), and the third group was a cross between the two. Every male had a solid black breast. Only one of Horst's males showed any red in the breast. I can speak of the birds that Horst and I showed with 100 percent certainty. As for the others, I can't recall, except there was one male from the Vancouver Island area (British Columbia) that had a distinctly different type (a very long neck and more slender, but I can't recall the breast color). Horst submitted the standard proposal for the breed, as he also did for the Welsummers. Why it ended up as it did, I don't know, and it may be totally irrelevant in this discussion, though I suspect Horst used a translation of sorts from the standard of his native Germany. The Welsummer standard, however, was more in keeping with the Dutch/British standard, which led to protests from some breeders whose birds were of German lines, subsequently resulting in a SOP revision (tail angle) that became a compromise between the two. I don't know where Horst got his Barnie start from--Germany, the UK, the Netherlands, or wherever. A couple of years thereafter, Hans Schippers stayed with me during a visit to the US, and he thought some of my Barnies were too dark ("te donker" or something) and arranged to have some eggs shipped to Lowell and me from the top Dutch breeders. The males from these (at least the ones I ended up with) had black breasts, and they were just as dark as the ones I already had (by that time my old birds had not been bread along any particular "line" but were of mixed background); the only difference was that the females had an incredibly beautiful gloss and superbly sharp lacing. A combination of dog/raccoon raids, along with the difficulties in raising chicks (unless vaccinated, they invariably fell victim to Marek's), I was left with just a few birds, and they were not the best (the best were apparently the favored meals of dogs, hawks, owls, and raccoons). I ended up disposing of the remaining few, some of which, sadly enough, ended up with Sandhill (they deserved better birds than those).
After many years of breeding, then, I gave up on them yet I continued to educate myself about the breed, reading pamphlets and copies of publications from the UK, the Netherlands, and Denmark. The poor resistance to Marek's was documented in Dutch articles early on (the 1930s), and the struggle to establish a single mating bird was also documented. The desire to achieve single mating flocks eventually met with success in the Netherlands but was evidently not followed by the Germans (or UK breeders).
I rarely show birds any more, as my arthritic bones make it hard to do show preparations and transport the birds to shows (besides, I am worried about picking up a disease as that has happened several times in the past). The Barnies, as well as the Wellies, that I have seen at shows that I have checked out over the recent years have been of poor quality. I wish I could see some of Royce's Wellies, though, as the pictures I have seen show some beautiful birds.
Trishia's enthusiasm and open attitude have impressed me from her very first contact, and it is hurtful to see the reaction her contributions have received. I so miss the respectful and engaging talks with judges like Ken Cooke and Vern Sorensen about any poultry topic, and can recall time and again the arrogant, dismissive retorts from some other poultry judges if questions were asked or an opinion stated. Young hobbyists are too often discouraged because of such condescending behavior, at least when it comes to exhibiting birds. Strange as it might sound, there are quite a few breeders who know a lot more about a breed than do judges and who can evaluate a bird better than the licensed judge. Birds that should be disqualified are placed on championship row time and again, at least when it comes to class champions.
People who are involved with poultry should be welcomed into the exhibition circles, and not rebuffed. The serious breeders should be encouraged to suggest changes to the SOP when appropriate, or even challenge things; they should definitely not be rebuffed and made to feel like incompetent fools. Reading through some of these missives, I feel that some people have crossed the line here, even if they themselves don't think so. We can do better than that. No, we MUST do better than that, or else the APA will become reserved for the pope and cardinals and the church will become empty.
Color descriptions are often tricky, and in many cases open to individual interpretation. Certain terms are vague in their definition, and may even vary depending on one's gender and regional/country location (ginger, buff, brown, partridge etc.). What led to the development of two varieties of SC brown Leghorns, for instance, or the development of the new varieties of the Wellies (as in Germany)? The dark India Game, or Cornish, is double laced, and the SOP here calls for a solid black breast in the male. Perhaps it might be a good idea to label the color variety double laced mahogany, brown, red, or whatever, and make it a standard color variety for all SOP breeds? Or, perhaps it is much better to develop a set specific pattern for each breed? What do I know? Just as a personal opinion--and I speak for myself only--there may be some sense in establishing an APA standard that follows that of the breed's country of origin....
Time to enjoy the sunshine. Good day to you all.

 

[tls_ranch]

Rachel dont get your comment???? I am showing my fossil rock Barnevelders
I have tried to get others interested in them
I talk to people at show interested in them
Are you showing??? Most of the enthusiasts left this thread thinking it was dominated by west coast people who arent interested in showing!!! As far as i can determine my stock is 100percent Barnevelder no mixing for size etc. i am interested in participating to improve the breed! Not for ribbons prizes!!! Rare beautiful kind Dutch chickens

Excuse me, but I believe you are implying that the " west coast people who aren't even interested in showing" is me. I said I wasn't interested in showing for several reasons. But Walt, Chad and others kept on implying that I wanted to change the SOP for my own benefit so as to win at shows or sell more birds. All I tried to do is bring up possible issues with the APA SOP that differ from the Dutch standard. I thought Walt would be interested and give unbiassed advice. I brought up the idea of editing the SOP to Walt on the urging of one of the original qualifying meet breeders. The resulting discussion ended up focusing on why I don't want to follow the APA SOP exactly and why I don't show.

Looking back, all that garbage talk ended up being infuriating and ridiculous at the same time. The drama, gossip, misleading info and bad mouthing (here and elsewhere) seems similar to what I experienced showing horses for nearly 25 years. This " chicken drama" seems trivial to what can happen with horse breeders, exhibitors, trainers and judges. Sometimes the worst were highly respected breeders, multiple world champions, "certified judges" and "hall of fame-ers". At least a "well respected chicken judge" won't almost kill you with a chicken. It was pretty eye opening to work for a "well respected horse judge" and have him scream and cuss at you that it's your job to sacrifice your life to protect him no matter what. It's a long story, but I really have a hard time now with respecting people just because of titles etc. I think in hindsight maybe I should of just kept to myself rather than seeking advice about the SOP. I should of known better than to stick my neck out. Lesson learned...

Right now, I just want to enjoy working with and improving my birds. I think maybe I should start a very small private group with a just a handful of dedicated barnie breeders. That way we can share info gathered from around the world ( not just the APA), bounce ideas around about how to breed good barnies and critique our birds without seeming to " dominate" anyone here on the BYC.

Go ahead and show your birds Honestly...Good for you! Be glad that you can show, but please don't judge others for not showing. They may have reasons not to show that are completely valid in their situation.

Good night,

Trisha

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

Ladies and Gentlemen:
Things are getting curiouser and curiouser! Aspects of any chicken breed are many, and the Barnevelder does not represent an exception in that regard. As in most cases, the idea of "purity" can sometimes be far-fetched. I know for a fact, for instance, that several "famous" single comb white Leghorn breeders crossed their Leghorns with other breeds, and when they achieved success in the show room, people offered their congratulations. During the banquet following a show I attended, one of the judges related his success in this regard (and looking around, I could see "disgust" and "disbelief" on the faces of some). Such cross breedings have been going on for years and years...to improve show points, to develop new varieties, to enhance vigor, what have you. Standard revisions have also been commonplace, and will be in the future. While every organization is free to adopt the standard members decide should be right for them, it may nonetheless be a matter of common sense and wisdom to take into account the many years of breeder experience from a breed's country of origin.
The Barnevelder faced multiple problems during the 1930s, as it had become rather popular also outside The Netherlands (German, The UK) as well--at the same time the brown egg laying American breeds became the thing (RIRs, New Hampshires) and the production qualities of some of the British brown egg layers improved. The Barnies were known for their susceptibility to Marek's, and--while respectable--their production quality could not match that of the other brown egg laying breeds. To add to that, the ideals in the various locations evolved along different routes. Perhaps the British (I only suggest this) veered farther away from the original than others (they tend to stake their own way in many things), but the German ideal also developed in a slightly different direction from the Dutch (which people are now trying to overcome through a unification effort). In the push to go for ever-more perfect show specimens, some aspects were neglected. Vigor was something that received attention in this process, I presume, but the production qualities were put on the back burner, according to some (this was something an old breeder in England claimed when we had a chat about 30 years ago). Both the quantity and the quality of the once-famous Barnie eggs suffered.
It would be unreasonable to suggest that breeders--wherever they were located--over the years have not crossed in other breeds in their Barnevelder flocks over the years. The Dutch, the British, the Germans, -- and we here in North America -- have been using these stratagems since the beginning of time, and will continue to do so. If anybody in her or his right mind thinks that she or he has a "pure" Barnevelder, Welsummer, Leghorn, or whatever, I will only shrug my shoulders and leave that person to her or his personal belief system. Acquiring birds and then keeping them in a closed flock for many years does not make those birds more "pure" than others; but one should be able to stabilize certain traits...conformation, productivity, or whatever.
I was a breeder of Barnevelders for years, and I truly admire the beautiful birds when they come out right. I have had birds from Dutch, German, and unknown origin, and I loved them all, despite some of the challenges inherent in the breed. I have raised bantams and large fowl alike.
The way I understand it, this thread is not exclusively an appeal to all of us to work together to improve the show bird, but it is "to work together and improve the breed," That means: production, eggshell color, vigor, conformation, SOP issues--everything. Whether we show or not should not matter one whit. Of course, it is laudable that there are people who promote the breed by showing their birds, but a great deal of credit needs to be sent in the direction of those who, while they may not be showing, keep working to produce good birds; and that includes developing new varieties.
The Dutch are somewhat reluctant to accepting new varieties of Barnevelders and Welsummers, but the Germans are not, and the British are also more open to such innovations. Such differences do not give rise to a World War III, however, and neither should they here. Personally, I am immensely impressed by what Trisha has achieved, for instance, and I have seen pictures of some of Royce's birds that I have also admired.
There is no reason whatsoever to get upset at the suggestion that we might consider revising our APA SOP when it comes to certain points. Those revisions happen all the time, and I would totally support a revision as far as the breast color of the male is concerned. I showed birds at the qualifying meet, I have raised the breed for years, and I have studied both Dutch material (I can read Dutch, and I have gone through stuff from the 1930s onward) as well as German and British material. In other words, I came to the breed not only through a theoretical avenue but also through years of experience. Dr. Hans Schippers saw my birds and critiqued them and subsequently arranged to have shipped to me and Lowell Barber hatching eggs from top breeders in Holland. By the way, I sent birds to the city of Barneveld in NY state on the occasion of the city's anniversary, and those birds were offspring from the last shipment of Dutch hatching eggs.
In brief, I support a push for the improvement of the breed by all--exhibitors and non-exhibitors alike--in ALL ASPECTS of the breed: breeding practices, quantity and quality of eggs, conformation, etc.
Happy Halloween to all.
Bjorn

 

[Barneveldy]

My bantam barnevelders

 

[pickledchicken]

We imported stock from the UK.

GFF I do appreciate the fact that you contribute a lot of new blood and breeds to the US. But you clearly state on your website that you are the first to import and they didn't exist until you got them here. I know darn well your aware of this thread and darn well that you knew indeed they do exist. Please do not discredit everyone on this thread who are very passionate about the breed and then pop in briefly just to try and make a sale. People on this very thread have them and have had them and have worked hard on them. Here is a cock bird of mine please feel free to compare photo's next to yours.

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

I mean that most of the Barnevelder's in the US are not of high quality. The lacing is wrong, size is too small, eggs far too light, and production could be improved. I don't mean to offend anyone or that the breed can't be revived... it just needs a lot of help that's all.

This discussion has taken a curious turn, indeed. I doubt whether most of the Barnevelders in any country, including The Netherlands, Germany, UK, USA, Canada, etc. is of "high" quality, whatever that is supposed to mean exactly. If we're talking about a grade of v or hv in the German evaluation system, very few birds would earn that mark in any breed. Based on what I have seen, the Barnevelders in the USA are generally of pretty good quality, and I remember a few years back when a lady in western Washington state showed me some hens that were exquisite both in shape, size, base color, and markings...in fact, the best I have ever seen. She also showed me the eggs, which were large and very dark, about like a UK utility Welsummer egg. I took down her name and phone number but lost it, which I shall forever regret. I don't recall exactly where she had acquired the birds, but I think it was from imported eggs.
Then about hatchery versus breeder suppliers. Some "breeders" truly do not offer birds of any particular quality; sometimes, I bet, they may be inferior to birds offered by some of the commercial hatcheries. Wholesale judgments of any kind are rarely based in fact. It is certainly possible to start with a flock originating from a commercial hatchery and then breed selectively for desired traits. While it may take a lot of time and require a great deal of patience and insight (let alone meticulous record keeping...), excellent results should eventually be achieved.
A breed is perhaps "ruined" when focus is placed on one particular trait to the detriment of all others, and the resulting birds are all that's available. Conscientious breeders, of whom we have many, normally keep that from happening. A good example in this respect would be the single comb White Leghorn, which may be divided into three groups: 1) utility--production is sole focus, and absolutely no attention is paid to conformation other than the basic (size, color, etc.), so some people would claim those birds to be "ruined;" 2) exhibition--conformation qualities are the total focus, to the exclusion of production qualities [I have had them, with pullets laying fewer than 100 SMALL eggs in their pullet year but stunning to look at--I considered them to be a "ruined" strain and got rid of them]; 3) exhibition/utility combined--the strains that have superior conformation qualities and have yet maintained the production quality [several breeders offer such birds]. As for the Barnevelders, I don't know if there are strains that could be considered "ruined" -- at least I have not heard of any. If anything, I am more concerned with their susceptibility to Marek's than significant problems with type or production. However, but if breeders keep co-operating and sharing experiences, insight, and breeding stock, one would expect great strides toward an improved Barnevelder in general. Looking at what breeders like Trishia have accomplished should be encouraging to us all.
In sum, we should celebrate the positive things we already have available and welcome any contribution toward a more perfect bird, which will always be a work in progress. That is as it has always been and what it should be.

 

[rarebear]

This is one of my stunning Barnies from Trisha. She is sweet and follows me around. Her name is Kate Middlehen. Thank you Trisha for the time that you have invested in making this breed so exquisite!

 

[fowlman01]

BB



This pullet took reserve Continental in Alberta, Canada last weekend. Couple cockerels on the photo also, but picture is too dark to see color well. At least you see the type somewhat.

This pullet would have been Reserve Large Fowl if it were not missing a tail feather...or maybe it was not quite in. Both of us liked it better than the Wyandotte. These are the kinds of wins that promote the breed. I had never seen Barnevelders like this before this show.

Walt

 

[fishnet1971]