Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[tls_ranch]

Neat photos. I wish our standard came with descriptive photos. I haven't found the full translated Dutch standard yet.

Double laced

http://translate.google.com/transla...lopedie.nl/php/index.php?title=Dubbelgezoomd

Blue double laced

http://translate.google.com/transla...die.nl/php/index.php?title=Blauwdubbelgezoomd

Trisha

 

[tls_ranch]

I hope to get some more blue hens with lacing like the blue hen in the middle pic on this page. Some of my pullets are looking close.

http://www.huehnerwelt.de/rassenazzwerg/zbarnevelder8.htm

Trisha

 

[tls_ranch]

Best I can do at translating German.

http://translate.google.com/transla...w.sv-barnevelder.de/?seite=musterbeschreibung

And

http://translate.google.com/transla...p://www.sv-barnevelder.de/?seite=rasseartikel

To me at least, the pictures of laced breasts in the German standard still don't look like they sound to me in the APA standard.

Breast: Each feather reddish brown with a sharply defined lacing of lustrous, greenish black.

Sharp to me means more like a thin edge. A problem in translation? Any way the German standard now reads (still poorly translated) more like " wide black out seam" . To me they look thickly laced in black, not sharply laced. And yes with a brown center...

And straight from Walt:

"FYI: The APA tends to go with the description that is used in the originating country. Is that different than the APA description?"

Answer...yes.


Trisha

 

[Tailfeathers]

Wow! I miss a day (or was it two?) and I'm like 10 pages behind now. In the interest of saving space, I won't repost your entire post Andy but rather will try to briefly answer your questions.

1) By "easier" I wasn't insinuating or equating that to laziness or such but rather the issue of double mating

2) I don't actually know the "reason" why it is called the SOP. Maybe it's back in the History somewhere but my guess would be because it is used for competition. Each trait is awarded a maximum number of points to total 100 for the "perfect" bird - which will never be achieved. Is "that all just a bit of 19th century puffery"? I guess that depends on one's perception. It's never occurred to me to be so.

3) The "foundation" I referred to is those original breeders who, as I said before, expended all the time, effort, expense, commitment, dedication, energy, and everything else that went into the work of breeding Barnie's to the point of getting them approved at a qualifying meet. I think Walt has already laid out very well that that process is no easy ordeal.

4) And I do believe the case can be made that it is reinventing the wheel vice changing the color of the wheel. It would be a totally different wheel. Btw, if there is such a desire to get full black breasted males approved, I suppose one could look at adding them as a "variety". Not sure how far that would go but I would think it's an option.

5) I asked Trisha to state the facts because she stated, "The facts are...". I started off my comment by saying I would only be venturing a guess. So I'm not sure where that's coming from.

6) Is the SOP only for showing? I suppose one could make the case that the SOP can be used for things other than showing and there certainly is info contained within that is profitable for general poultry purposes. However, having said that, I don't see how anyone could argue that the primary purpose of the SOP is to provide the guidelines for Exhibition and more specifically for the judging of poultry. As to how much someone who doesn't show should have a say in the SOP, I'd probably have to think that thru a bit more but since it is the authority by which judges must use, it seems logical at first thought that those who don't show shouldn't carry the weight of those who do.

7) Number 7. The number of completion. A good number to end on. Hopefully I've answered your questions to your satisfaction.

Now I'm on to the next 10 pages and probably further "lively discussion".

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

I agree with Andy. That is why I keep referring to " appearing black" , mostly black, near black and etc. The only red appears deep down in the feather, so that one has to part the feathers to see it. Otherwise the breast looks black with the occasional red fleck. Most of us already agree that many of the " black breasted" males here in the US already can already meet that description. Even Royce's " best cock" could fall under that description. He has the only line in the US that I have not worked with..the Erhard line. The 3 other major lines/ stains of KC, vB, and Johan lines mostly have males that can fit " appearing black" breast or similar wording.

Even the recently imported blues by Greenfire appear to produce mostly black or blue breasts in the males. Yes, some have lacing that can be seen...but not every feather in the breast.

Trisha

I'd like to correct the above with regard to my birds. First, my "best cock" is the result of at least 3 years of focusing my efforts on getting more lacing in the breast of my males. Prior to that I was focused, like many, mostly on the females. And I haven't double mated. I started out with birds not unlike what's been talked about and shown on here. Secondly, my line is NOT the "Erhard line". I originally started with Barnies from Erhard but later added birds that came from vB, KC, and Johan birds. About 5 years ago, I culled down to one cockerel and two pullets - mostly of the vB and Johan "strains". Since then I have kept a closed flock and linebred.

God Bless,

 

[Anniebee]

The withering away causing a keel to show is also a sign of Mareks. The age was about right too, but it could be a number of things.

Walt

Thanks Walt - There was certainly a lot of withering around the keel - which, considering the amount she continued to eat - didn't make a lot of sense - UNLESS that is, you are correct and it was Maraks.

Now all I have to do is wait it out for my 3 remaining chickens. Not something I care to think about, but will face if and when the time comes. They are - an Aussie Araucana ( in heavy moult and living separately from the others ) ... a Welsummer and RIR - both beautiful big chickens and still laying even though it is Winter here. So far they seem to be ok - but I can only keep my fingers crossed ! IF the worst comes, and I lose the lot ( heaven forbid ) ... I will not purchase any further chickens for 1 year, scour the coop and take off all top dressing in the runs, and start again - provided I can have proof of vaccination from wherever I get 2 x RIR's, 2 x Welsummers, and 2 x Barnies from. The original breeder told me they were all vaccinated, but I had my doubts - it was a huge but very prominent chicken breeding specialty farm with allegedly excellent credentials. . hmmm.

I still have to consider though, the rat situation - which has been dealt with absolutely. ( Snake wire and extra wood bulk on door - formerly just chicken wire, and all holes of any size, wood covered completely ). I have had NO sign of rats since. She used to roost - and I think the *&$%# rats did too, from their deposits. A rat bite could introduce just about anything. Even from next door's chickens.

I guess however, if any or all of my chickens come down with the same kind of thing eventually - we could safely presume it was Maraks or some other virulent chicken disease. I cannot unfortunately afford to have autopsies.

Cheers ........ AB.

 

[Tailfeathers]

But that would mean more " genetic mumbo jumbo" , lol. I was trying to limit such references here because i was told it wasnt that important. Though I would love to read it all if you want to send me info

Basically from what i can tell. The German site said that they revised their standard in 2006 ish. They say that the laced breast in the males helps keep the female from getting too dark. I think the Dutch revised their standard more recently from 2009 to 2012. They say that a solid black breast is sustainable and can produce good females without getting too dark over time.

The US standard is too confusing and vague and should be revised. At this point we can't even agree if it needs to be changed, let alone what to change it too.

Trisha

Erhard and Bjorn would both likely tell you that the Dutch and British have never agreed on much of anything when it comes to chickens. As, I believe it was HC said as well as myself earlier, the same "discussions" occurred when it came to the Welsummer SOP.

Combine that with the last sentence above and that is EXACTLY why the US SOP should NOT be revised. Every single breed in the SOP that I've looked at has somewhat of a "confusing and vague" description. Moreover, we're talking about human being reading it and human being judging from it. So there will ALWAYS be come subjectivity involved. Trisha is absolutely right - we can't even agree IF it should be changed, let alone what it should be changed to.

Poulch has added even more substance to the discussion and I think the greatest thing he may have said is to stop focusing solely on the breast color as, according to him and I have no reason to doubt it, the hackles, saddle, and coverts play a role. So it's pretty obvious that there is a whole LOT that is still unknown.

What is known is this. Erhard has probably been breeding Barnevelders longer than all of us combined. I would imagine the same could be said of Horst. And, did I mention that he was a well known judge? Hmmm, seems like he'd have some credibility there too but I guess after the sarcasm that has been thrown Walt's way in the last few pages, I shouldn't be so quick to think that. Don't know how long Lowell had Barnies but I do know he was a well-known and respected breeder. Seems to me that amount of experience ought to count for something. Couple that with what they did to get the Barnies approved and frankly, I'm really surprised that a few folks new to the breed would be so quick to so easily throw all that under the bus. Combine all that with the reputation of the APA and the requirements they have for a breed to be approved and it just boggles my mind that this "discussion" continues.

And let me tell ya, start talking about "melanisers", "modifiers", 'restrictors", "e-locus", etc, etc, etc. and you're gonna see Erhard's eyes roll back in his head. But does that make him any less of a breeder. I think not. Heck, I don't even understand most of that stuff. Trying to learn but I know I never will. Did the folks who developed the Barnevelder have any idea what those things were? I'd be surprised if they did. How many breeds were developed and then accepted into the APA from just pure old fashioned breeding, seeing the results, selecting the next matings, and so on?

Thanks Poultch for your inputs. I don't understand it all but I do understand enough to know that I'm even more convinced we ought to leave well enough alone and I'm gonna continue to work on my birds until hopefully I get something that looks like this:



I don't remember for sure where I got this and can't find anything in the Properties. I think it came from an old German publication that Erhard had but not sure. But that's basically what I'm after except a little wider lacing.

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

Walt, it has been said before in this discussion that for the last 20 years no one was really showing barnies..They are nearly lost breed. As of 5 years ago it was almost impossible to find them. Most of the original Breeders gave up, died or retired. Mareks wiped out a bunch of the breeding flocks...none could be imported due to new import restrictions. It wasn't just folks on this site all of a sudden wanting to change the standard. The old Yahoo Barnevelder Group argued over this 5 years ago, but the owner of the group is MIA and the group is "dead". There isn't a US Barnevelder club...this forum is the closest thing too one. We've argued there about lacing too...not just now.

The reason this is coming to light is that Bjorn spoke up and gave us some more back history to go on. I don't even think he's worked with barnies for years. I then saw your post on the "Revision" and thought...hey now is a good time to bring up the Barnie standard. Two other clubs have revised their standards in the last few years, but we are still stuck on a vague 20 year old standard.

I also will clearly state that I will not be breeding to the APA standard the way it stands.

I am not trying to change the standard just because of my birds. Ask another APA judge or anyone to draw a picture of what a bird would look like with Breast: Each feather reddish brown with a sharply defined lacing of lustrous, greenish black. I don't think would look much like a Barnevelder and doesn't match most of what is available here in the US or even in other countries.

I could careless if I NEVER show my birds. I just enjoy the challenge of breeding Barnevelders.

Trisha

I just lost a whole post and I'm ready for bed so please pardon me in advance if this seems curt and to the point. I tried to really lay out some points in an easily understandable way. I had it all laid out in an easy to follow manner but now my mind is scrambled. So here goes. I'm just gonna state the major points in order of the above now.

I know for a fact that Barnies have been shown for the last 20 years. Certainly not to the extent that I, or most others, would like - but they've been shown and there are a LOT of breeds which are not well represented. There are many other breeds that have been "nearly lost". (Buckeyes were endangered 2yrs ago & threatened now. Russian Orloffs aren't even in the Book anymore!)

Honestly, I'm not thinking very straight right now but I think the point I'm trying to make is that I and many others have been working hard to conform to the SOP. Rather than try and buck the system and rebel against the authority, "we" choose to respect it and work toward it. I don't know who "we" is that are "still stuck on a vague 20 year old standard" but those of us who have been and are continuing to show are not "stuck on a vague 20 year old standard". That kind of statement shows nothing but contempt for the APA, the SOP, the judges who have been and still are using it, the Founders who settled on it and all the efforts they put into getting the birds accepted - and to the rest of us who have been following it!!!!!

I don't think there is a breed listed in the SOP that isn't somewhat "confusing and vague". We are dealing with human beings as breeders and human beings as judges. There is always some subjectivity involved. I've spent years working toward a goal and I've done my fair share of educating the judges on the breed. I have no doubt there are others who have done both a lot longer. And now we're supposed to throw all that under the bus because somebody who openly states they "will not" (vice cannot) breed according to the SOP wants to change it to suit their fancy?

The SOP is the authority for poultry in the US. What would happen if everyone decided to take the same course of action? "Well, I don't care what the Book says, I'm gonna do it my own way and I think everyone else should do it my way." And if I can't get it done then we'll form a club and have paid dues and get it done that way. That really does reflect a lot of contempt and total disrespect for all the APA has done over the years and the efforts the judges go to for them to judge birds.

This issue came up long before Bjorn piped in. As you said, it was being "discussed" on the Yahoo Group as well.

I've said this before... the Dutch have their Standard. Good for them. The Brits have their Standard. Good for them. The Aussies theirs. Good for them. The Germans theirs. Good for them. And now I find out the Kiwi's have theirs. Good for them. And we have ours. Good for us!! Walt already addressed this but there's nothing that says our SOP must agree with the country of origin.

I was part of the old Yahoo Barnie Group for awhile. Doesn't surprise me at all that it's died and probably due to the Manager. You reap what you sow. And he sowed a LOT of ill will. Folks might want to keep that in mind when flippant and sarcastic comments are thrown around on here. Frankly, I'm embarrassed by the way Walt has been treated in this thread. I wouldn't blame him one iota if he just left y'all to yourselves. He's laid things out in a very straight-forward, concise, cogent, and logical manner. The snide comments and sarcasm really is uncalled for and I think speaks volumes as to the ability to see the Big Picture vice the tunnel vision of a personal crusade.

There is nothing wrong with you, or anyone else's desire, to not breed according to the SOP. That is your and their prerogative. But leave the APA, the SOP, the judges, and the rest of us who are alone. You may care less if you ever show. Fine. I do care though. So breed your birds however you want. Enjoy the challenge of breeding your Barnies however you want to. NOBODY is stopping you. Frankly, I don't care if you want to breed them to have pink poka dots on their breast. They just aren't "Standard bred". Period. And that's probably at the crux of the matter. If you refuse to breed your birds according to the SOP, you know you can't call them "Standard Bred". What makes them Standard Bred? In this country it's the SOP. Period. As for me, I chose to accept it and what the others who knew a whole lot more than me did. And do my best to get my birds where the SOP says they should be.

Which reminds me. The statement, "I don't think would look much like a Barnevelder and doesn't match most of what is available here in the US or even in other countries." is completely irrelevant. The whole purpose of the Standard is to prevent everyone and anyone from deciding what a breed should look like. It is the Standard that decides. Not the other way around. Moreover, there ain't a breed in this country, or probably the world, that the SOP "match most of what is available". The vast majority of the birds in any breed don't match the Standard. That's not the Standard's problem. That's the breeders problem. And Walt has already addressed the issue of "breeders".

Which begs a question... If you so openly and adamantly state that you "will not breed according to the Standard", are you not just encouraging everyone to go off on their own? How is that good for any breed? What would happen if everyone took that route?

I do show. And the judges who look at my birds will be using the SOP and have been for years. So you may care less if you ever show - but I show and I care. So pardon the APA, the judges, me, and everyone else who wants to submit to their authority and abide by a "vague 20 year old standard".

God Bless,

 

[tls_ranch]

Walt, it has been said before in this discussion that for the last 20 years no one was really showing barnies..They are nearly lost breed. As of 5 years ago it was almost impossible to find them. Most of the original Breeders gave up, died or retired. Mareks wiped out a bunch of the breeding flocks...none could be imported due to new import restrictions. It wasn't just folks on this site all of a sudden wanting to change the standard. The old Yahoo Barnevelder Group argued over this 5 years ago, but the owner of the group is MIA and the group is "dead". There isn't a US Barnevelder club...this forum is the closest thing too one. We've argued there about lacing too...not just now.

The reason this is coming to light is that Bjorn spoke up and gave us some more back history to go on. I don't even think he's worked with barnies for years. I then saw your post on the "Revision" and thought...hey now is a good time to bring up the Barnie standard. Two other clubs have revised their standards in the last few years, but we are still stuck on a vague 20 year old standard.

I also will clearly state that I will not be breeding to the APA standard the way it stands.

I am not trying to change the standard just because of my birds. Ask another APA judge or anyone to draw a picture of what a bird would look like with Breast: Each feather reddish brown with a sharply defined lacing of lustrous, greenish black.  I don't think would look much like a Barnevelder and doesn't match most of what is available here in the US or even in other countries.

I could careless if I NEVER show my birds. I just enjoy the challenge of breeding Barnevelders.

Trisha



 

I just lost a whole post and I'm ready for bed so please pardon me in advance if this seems curt and to the point.  I tried to really lay out some points in an easily understandable way.  I had it all laid out in an easy to follow manner but now my mind is scrambled.  So here goes.  I'm just gonna state the major points in order of the above now.

I know for a fact that Barnies have been shown for the last 20 years.  Certainly not to the extent that I, or most others, would like - but they've been shown and there are a LOT of breeds which are not well represented.  There are many other breeds that have been "nearly lost".  (Buckeyes were endangered 2yrs ago & threatened now.  Russian Orloffs aren't even in the Book anymore!) 

Honestly, I'm not thinking very straight right now but I think the point I'm trying to make is that I and many others have been working hard to conform to the SOP.  Rather than try and buck the system and rebel against the authority, "we" choose to respect it and work toward it.  I don't know who "we" is that are "still stuck on a vague 20 year old standard" but those of us who have been and are continuing to show are not "stuck on a vague 20 year old standard".  That kind of statement shows nothing but contempt for the APA, the SOP, the judges who have been and still are using it, the Founders who settled on it and all the efforts they put into getting the birds accepted - and to the rest of us who have been following it!!!!!

I don't think there is a breed listed in the SOP that isn't somewhat "confusing and vague".  We are dealing with human beings as breeders and human beings as judges.  There is always some subjectivity involved.  I've spent years working toward a goal and I've done my fair share of educating the judges on the breed.  I have no doubt there are others who have done both a lot longer.  And now we're supposed to throw all that under the bus because somebody who openly states they "will not" (vice cannot) breed according to the SOP wants to change it to suit their fancy?

The SOP is the authority for poultry in the US.  What would happen if everyone decided to take the same course of action?  "Well, I don't care what the Book says, I'm gonna do it my own way and I think everyone else should do it my way."  And if I can't get it done then we'll form a club and have paid dues and get it done that way.  That really does reflect a lot of contempt and total disrespect for all the APA has done over the years and the efforts the judges go to for them to judge birds.

This issue came up long before Bjorn piped in.  As you said, it was being "discussed" on the Yahoo Group as well.

I've said this before... the Dutch have their Standard.  Good for them.  The Brits have their Standard.  Good for them.  The Aussies theirs. Good for them.  The Germans theirs.  Good for them.  And now I find out the Kiwi's have theirs.  Good for them.  And we have ours.  Good for us!!  Walt already addressed this but there's nothing that says our SOP must agree with the country of origin.

I was part of the old Yahoo Barnie Group for awhile.  Doesn't surprise me at all that it's died and probably due to the Manager.  You reap what you sow.  And he sowed a LOT of ill will.  Folks might want to keep that in mind when flippant and sarcastic comments are thrown around on here.  Frankly, I'm embarrassed by the way Walt has been treated in this thread.  I wouldn't blame him one iota if he just left y'all to yourselves. He's laid things out in a very straight-forward, concise, cogent, and logical manner.  The snide comments and sarcasm really is uncalled for and I think speaks volumes as to the ability to see the Big Picture vice the tunnel vision of a personal crusade.

There is nothing wrong with you, or anyone else's desire, to not breed according to the SOP.  That is your and their prerogative.  But leave the APA, the SOP, the judges, and the rest of us who are alone.  You may care less if you ever show.  Fine.  I do care though.  So breed your birds however you want.  Enjoy the challenge of breeding your Barnies however you want to.  NOBODY is stopping you.  Frankly, I don't care if you want to breed them to have pink poka dots on their breast.  They just aren't "Standard bred".  Period.  And that's probably at the crux of the matter.  If you refuse to breed your birds according to the SOP, you know you can't call them "Standard Bred".  What makes them Standard Bred?  In this country it's the SOP.  Period.  As for me, I chose to accept it and what the others who knew a whole lot more than me did.  And do my best to get my birds where the SOP says they should be.

Which reminds me.  The statement, "I don't think would look much like a Barnevelder and doesn't match most of what is available here in the US or even in other countries." is completely irrelevant.  The whole purpose of the Standard is to prevent everyone and anyone from deciding what a breed should look like.  It is the Standard that decides.  Not the other way around.  Moreover, there ain't a breed in this country, or probably the world, that the SOP "match most of what is available".  The vast majority of the birds in any breed don't match the Standard.  That's not the Standard's problem.  That's the breeders problem.  And Walt has already addressed the issue of "breeders". 

Which begs a question... If you so openly and adamantly state that you "will not breed according to the Standard", are you not just encouraging everyone to go off on their own?  How is that good for any breed?  What would happen if everyone took that route?

I do show.  And the judges who look at my birds will be using the SOP and have been for years.  So you may care less if you ever show - but I show and I care.  So pardon the APA, the judges, me, and everyone else who wants to submit to their authority and abide by a "vague 20 year old standard".

God Bless,

It is your choice to breed toward that picture and by all means go for it. I have a choice too and I am open to learning new things.

Trisha

 

[flocknfoal]

I will try, they are on my old computer...that room doesn't have AC...it is probably about 100 in there right now. On the bright side, I got 12 eggs today from 20 hens. It is 114 today. I haven't lost any to heat this year either.

Trisha

How do you keep your chickens cool in that kind of heat? It's been about 100 here a few days and they were all panting like crazy. Scared me! I think it's going to be a hot summer, so any advice you have is appreciated! (also, thank you Trisha for the links to pictures - VERY helpful!)