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Baytril (enrofloxacin) Sources

Discussion in 'Emergencies / Diseases / Injuries and Cures' started by casportpony, Mar 12, 2015.

  1. casportpony

    casportpony Poop Inspector General Premium Member

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    Most of these "diagnostic centers" will suggest submitting a bird for necropsy, but even then, they probably won't give any medical advice, though they might be able to recommend a vet that could.

    Sure, UC Davis can run all sorts of tests for next to nothing, but one has to know how to collect and ship samples properly.

    -Kathy
     
  2. dawg53

    dawg53 Humble

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    I dont waste my time with extension offices. If I dont know what it is, I cull.
     
  3. casportpony

    casportpony Poop Inspector General Premium Member

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    @Chickerdoodle13 , how would you treat a 100 gram chick with a probable E.coli infection?

    -Kathy
     
  4. casportpony

    casportpony Poop Inspector General Premium Member

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    X2 on the extension offices... Last time I called the one in Santa Clara County they didn't even return my calls!

    -Kathy
     
  5. Chickerdoodle13

    Chickerdoodle13 The truth is out there...

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    Culling is definitely the preferred method, but unfortunately many (myself included) don't have the heart to cull every sick bird. Though I've had to do it with a few.

    CasportPony,

    The reason why many vets won't prescribe or treat over the phone is because it is nearly impossible to diagnose without putting your hands on the animals and potentially taking samples. Too much liability to prescribe over the phone.

    E. coli is a perfect example of why it can be important to have a good idea of what you are dealing with. E. coli generally manifests itself as a respiratory disease (Air sacculitis, pneumonia, etc.) or septicemia in birds. It's even more tricky because most animals that carry E. coli (especially ones that can infect humans) are asymptomatic carriers. Additionally, there are an increasing number of antibiotic resistant strains of E. coli, which is bad news for human health because this can cause some pretty serious infections in people (Especially in children - Some variants of E. coli can even cause total kidney failure in children!). However, many strains of E. coli are susceptible to tetracycline, a drug that IS used in food animals (providing one follows the withdrawal times) and this is generally available in Tractor Supply and most feed stores.

    My main issue is with using Baytril in food animals or poultry that lays eggs for consumption without knowledge of the specific organism causing the problem.
     
  6. casportpony

    casportpony Poop Inspector General Premium Member

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    @Chickerdoodle13 and everyone else reading this, I think everyone here will agree that most critically ill birds won't be drinking, so how can one get the proper amount of tetracycline into 100 gram chick?

    -Kathy
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2015
  7. Chickerdoodle13

    Chickerdoodle13 The truth is out there...

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    Tetracycline also comes in an injectable form which I recommend for severely ill patients. However, it is also fairly easy to tube a bird for force feeding/fluids, but it is of course, not without risk. There is always the chance a beginner can put the feeding tube into the trachea and cause severe aspiration pneumonia (Which is rapidly fatal in birds, unfortunately). This is where having experienced bird friends come in handy. Asking wildlife rehabbers is also another option if someone doesn't feel comfortable doing it themselves without someone explaining or showing them how to do it. Getting the supplies to tube feed may be more tricky. I usually get mine from the wildlife center through the vet school when I need them, but many vets have urinary catheters and syringes which is what we use (Hence the reason I think it is a great idea to get friendly with your small animal vet, even if they don't know about birds). I'm sure you can make a homemade contraption that works just as well, but I'm not quite sure where to start in regards to that.

    If you don't have access to a tube to ensure the fluids go down the right "pipe", I would not force feed anything to a bird. It's a sure way to hurt the chances of recovery, especially if the bird is already suffering from respiratory ailments. (Birds decline incredibly quickly when their respiratory systems are compromised).
     
  8. dawg53

    dawg53 Humble

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    Casportpony is the one who teaches tube feeding to anyone wanting to learn how to do it. She even gives them her phone number to call her. I consider her the resident expert when it comes to tube feeding. See her link above in post #16. Nothing like OJT experience to back it up.
     
  9. Michael Apple

    Michael Apple Overrun With Chickens

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    The "problem" in regard to antibiotics is overuse, not competent and responsible use. Letting a nanny state mentality hinder the availability of these antibiotics only gives the state more power to increase the shakedown game. Ask any vet in California about the amount of paperwork, taxes they have to submit to the state, and there should be no question about why the costs are rising to the level they are. Baytril is a fluoroquinolone and requires a 2 month withdrawal.

    Most people posting here are fond of their poultry, and some regard them as pets. If one values the life of their bird, they will desire to learn what to use and how much is effective. The info is available in University studies performed by animal science departments.

    Those who have bothered to investigate will understand that tetracyclines have lost their effectiveness due to the fact that the nature of organisms are to overcome and survive, and they all develop immunity, even a single celled organism. So science is continually advancing to prevent those organisms which are out to destroy that which we value. Some people have used these antibiotics carelessly, but that shouldn't mean everyone should be treated like irresponsible children by a bunch of bureaucrats.

    Tetracycline will be eaten for lunch by the average strain of E. coli or Enterococcus. It is the responsibility of each individual to perform the research necessary to know what they are treating. A culture and sensitivity test is necessary to know for sure. If you want to spend lots of money, go to the vet every time a bird gets sick. Experience what I have when a vet knows less about what antibiotic to prescribe than I do. Let an infection worsen and have to spend 2-3 times the amount you needed to in the first place, all because you accepted his official title as something of worth. Where good husbandry practices and proper diet can prevent many problems from occurring, eventually one will be faced with having to use antibiotics. They might as well educate themselves for when that time comes.
     
  10. Chickerdoodle13

    Chickerdoodle13 The truth is out there...

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    I agree on most all points. But I don't believe antibiotics (at least those valuable in human medicine) should be freely available to the general public. Lots of people here on this site are very intelligent and can understand the properties and usage of antibiotics. My experience has also shown me that there are many, many more people out there that have no idea how they work and will throw whatever they have at any illness. That is truly scary to me, and is proof enough that antibiotic use should be regulated to a degree.

    I will say it is incredibly frustrating. Antibiotics (along with other drugs) have been restricted to veterinarians because of their value in human medicine. It can be very difficult and even impossible to get certain antibiotics that would be tremendously helpful in treating whatever it is we are treating. However, until we figure some new way to combat resistance, human health should be always be considered. This is even more true in food animal medicine, where antibiotic use is often a staple in the industry.

    I don't really understand the hostility towards veterinarians. I am sorry you had a negative experience. All veterinarians are better at treating some things than others. Unfortunately there are not a lot of us with bird interests in that field, and those of us with interests in poultry don't always end up in private practice. However, it is always important to investigate a veterinarian's experience and hopefully the vet will be honest if they are not comfortable treating a certain species. Other vets may not have experience but will have friends in poultry medicine that they can call for help (which is what most veterinarians do with tricky or interesting cases anyway, no matter the species!

    Before I was involved in the veterinary field, I did not take my birds to the vet and I did a ton of home remedies. Many of them worked and some did not work at all. However, now I stop and think twice before giving any medication to my birds to be sure it is truly necessary.

    Two months can be a long time in the life of a chicken. I'm not saying that people here will do this, but it is entirely possible that someone decides the bird isn't worth it after starting treatment so the bird ends up at a sale or an auction. Someone else buys it unaware of the history and that animal potentially ends up in the food chain. This happening occasionally would not be a big deal, but it happens so often in the livestock world. This is another reason veterinarians have to be extra careful about livestock. If that animal ends up at a slaughter house (I'm talking now mainly larger animals like cows and pigs) and tests positive for antibiotics, the prescribing vet could be held directly responsible, even if the original owner swore up and down they were keeping that animal for the entire withdrawal period. It does stink and I wish there was some way to have less rules, but i can also see why regulations like these exist.

    I'm not against the use of antibiotics, but they should be used with care.
     

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