BCM Roo x Red Selinks - 3 generations and they're a new BCM?

[NTBugtraq]

There is the problem with Marans in the USA. We can not even breed APA SOP type Marans on steady basis. What do you consider a Marans.

Snowbird, my rooster lost his comb and one toe this winter. What I want is birds that don't suffer more than birds that are SOP. My rooster is the result of an effort by a friend to reduce comb size and increase hardiness, and my hens are locally "developed" by a breeder up here, the combination may not result in show quality, but can you tell me why it won't result in a hardier "maran-type" bird?

 

[snowbird]

Quote:

Quote:
I believe you might be able to breed a Marans looking bird, but you will always have throw backs to everything they are mixed with now. I live in Michigan and you have to take the males inside of a building during the winter. If the Marans males are allowed to run outside during the winter then you will have frozen. If you want them to sale eggs from why would you want Marans. They do not lay very good during the winter months. Like the olde saying " you buy the feed so breed what you like" Good luck Don

 

[3riverschick]

to achieve a new variety you would need to take the directly descended get back to the original sire for 8 generations. In other words, pick a female from your original stud rooster, breed them. Take the female back to him; them take the females from the next generation back to him. Then the next. for 8 generations. Then you can say you have a pure bred. Or, follow the time-honored advice and breeding chart from renowned poultry breeder and judge Wid Card in his slim 55 page volume "Breeding Laws", not opinions or theories, ...Laws.
LAWS GOVERNING The BREEDING OF STANDARD FOWLS A BOOK COVERING INBREEDING
AND LINE BREEDING OF ALL RECOGNIZED BREEDS OF DOMESTIC FOWLS, WITH CHART
1912
By W. H. CARD
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=chi.087299559;view=1up;seq=5
plus a list of other valuable classic books on poultry breeding.
http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/011826929
Best Regards,
Karen
If you decide to go with a Buff color on your new variety, this article by Card was deemed by Danne Honour
to be the best article he ever read on Buff coloring. Danne is widely considered one of the Deans of the color Buff.
The gospel of true buff color on domestic fowls.
By: Card, Wetherell Henry, 1860-
Published: (1900)
http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/009067324

 

[NTBugtraq]

I gotta lolz, you say "stop thinking as you do", someone else is interested in what happens, I am actually very happy to get such a diversity of response.

I have stated this is my project, with no intent to sell chicks. I think such vehement response's are ill informed. IOW, you say or cite nothing to prove your assertion, so please, offer citations, point to real research, or proclaim you stance as your own opinion.

I wish people would point me to real research, some data I could look at and learn, but vitriolic hyperbolae doesn't help anyone.

Anyway, I am very happy ppl are interested in this thread.

 

[3riverschick]

Well I did. That slim tome of Judge Card's has almost all the program you need to create a new variety.
He had 40 years of poultry breeding behind him when he wrote this book. Judge Card was known for his ability to make complex breeding simple. He could often be found at a poultry show seated with a circle of listeners as he explained breeding in simple terms. He also created a new breed of poultry so he understood that process. Judge Card made a concerted effort to forgo scientific genetics in his book , preferring to explain in simpler terms, so the newcomer to breeding wouldn't be confused by a bunch of scientific terms.
Best,
Karen
Now for color genetics you will probably want more than the info in his book. Here is a wonderful book I own. Just a great explanation of poultry color genetics in simple terms. The rear 1/2 of the book is a pictorial atlas of poultry colors, captioned with the genetic formulas for those colors. A great help when you are discussing color genetics with the experts here. Most all of them use the scientific formulas when discussing color genetics as the hobby names can be so confusing. Sometimes a hobby name for a color can mean 2 different scientific formulas. "The Genetics Of Chicken Colours- The Basics " http://www.chickencolours.com
Yes, it is expensive but worth every penny!
Best Success,
Karen

 

[3riverschick]

NTBug, I sent you a private message. Check your messages.
Best,
Karen

 

[seventreesfarm]

Well I did. That slim tome of Judge Card's has almost all the program you need to create a new variety.
He had 40 years of poultry breeding behind him when he wrote this book. Judge Card was known for his ability to make complex breeding simple. He could often be found at a poultry show seated with a circle of listeners as he explained breeding in simple terms. He also created a new breed of poultry so he understood that process. Judge Card made a concerted effort to forgo scientific genetics in his book , preferring to explain in simpler terms, so the newcomer to breeding wouldn't be confused by a bunch of scientific terms.
Best,
Karen
Now for color genetics you will probably want more than the info in his book. Here is a wonderful book I own. Just a great explanation of poultry color genetics in simple terms. The rear 1/2 of the book is a pictorial atlas of poultry colors, captioned with the genetic formulas for those colors. A great help when you are discussing color genetics with the experts here. Most all of them use the scientific formulas when discussing color genetics as the hobby names can be so confusing. Sometimes a hobby name for a color can mean 2 different scientific formulas. "The Genetics Of Chicken Colours- The Basics " http://www.chickencolours.com
Yes, it is expensive but worth every penny!
Best Success,
Karen

Thanks for the info on Judge Card's book. I am slowly downloading good old writing on line breeding and stock selection as I work with my flock. This site has lots of scanned books to download, here is what comes up under the "Poultry" subject heading http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/subject/Poultry#/titles

I can also recommend the Chicken Colours book. It wasn't cheap, but I love the pictures that go with the explanations. It is nice to have it all on one place, instead of all over the internet.

I'm breeding olive-eggers, but also want sustainable foundation stock to make them, so for me that means Marans and Ameraucanas. I recently bought a nice golden cuckoo roo and am crossing him with my blue/black coppers, plus have back crossed him with the best of his daughters. I'm also slowly selecting olive eggers with a conformation I like (closer to marans) so threads liek this are interesting and helpful to see what criteria other 'tinkerers' look for in project birds.

 

[perchead]

How can you breed a marans to another breed and still have a marans? I'm newer to chickens but have had horses for a while if you breed a quarter horse and a Morgan it's nothing are chickens different?

 

[snowbird]

How can you breed a marans to another breed and still have a marans? I'm newer to chickens but have had horses for a while if you breed a quarter horse and a Morgan it's nothing are chickens different?

According to the FRench once blood is used outside of Marans they are no longer Marans. Don

 

[NTBugtraq]

First, I want to apologize for my rant post. I won't try to justify it, it came out of many reasons...let me just say sorry.

3riverschick has given me a lot to read.

I feel I should say something as to why I chose this project. I am in an area where a lot of people sell eggs. When I started this farm 3 years ago, one of my goals was to sell what is not commonly available. In pursuit of that, black eggs came up. I have no pallet, I smoke and drink Rye, but I came to understand that BCM's offered a unique flavor, both in eggs and meat, so my idea was to raise BCMs. Then I discovered how scarce they were, and how expensive. Having no experience with chickens at all, I bought 30 Frey's Special Dual purpose to learn. Decent birds for meat and layers, and getting them in September meant learning how to keep them through the winter...they were supposed to be heartier.

So, I met this friend, in the course of convo, she explained how BCMs pass the traits I wanted (black eggs) via the roo. She suggested, cross with my hens for 3 generations, and I'd have what I wanted, layers that laid black eggs. This has been somewhat confirmed (although it was stated here that it needs to be 8 generations), but the point is I could do this for free. The Frey's special dual purpose have never given me better than an egg every other day, and if BCMs are worse, how worse could they be?

Point is, I am not going to raise meat birds that drop dead while standing. I did not realize that BCMs were poor layers, but the fact is, I don't really care, if they produce black eggs then I have something the others around here don't. This is not meant to be highly profitable at this point, break even and I am happy for the next few years. As I cull the roos I get food for both myself and my dogs, so its all good. Maybe you can afford $12 for an unsexed BCM chick, I can't.

3riverschick has given me a lot to read, and I am working on it, it by no means presumes you know nothing...;-] For example, my chicks (my first hatch) are now 18 days old, I can't do anything with all the chick down colors I've been given, but I have a second hatch on Day 11, so I will pay more attention then. Since I am not growing for show or sale of birds, I have to find the good info on laying and egg color, further down the list I assume.

In any event, I just want to say that discouraging cross-breeding isn't a scientific goal. I laud purebred breeders for wanting to prevent people from buying things called their breed which isn't, but projects such as mine are a demonstration of a desire to get involved in something which is largely being patented, taken away from the public, and turned into something akin to auto-tuned music. I restate, I am not trying to make fake BCMs to sell, I am trying to make birds that will better suit my farm, my hoped for clientele, and the life I can offer them. I admit, I didn't start with all the right knowledge or resources, but it is my goal. Being told this is only one way to get there, and I'm not doing it that right way, inspires me not. In fact, it only makes me want to experiment more.

So forgive my arrogance, forgive me bucking all that science, for I'm not. I've been pointed to 100 years of knowledge while I have chicks in the incubator. I will see them through (and put more in) but read and learn as much as I can. And I promise, I will more closely consider my words, again, my apologies.