Biodiversity vs. Classic Animal breeding

[catdaddyfro]

If it weren't for spell check I'd be lost. My trouble really starts in the typing. See I can think faster than I can type; so, I'm always about 2 or 3 sentences ahead in my brain from what is on the screen.

We have a mutual friend gjensen I was conversing with him and a couple others elsewhere just the other day. I told them not only did I have trouble with typing for the reason you stated too I'm slower than a snail with these two fingers and think faster than I can type it but I also have a hard time translating my southern grammar into reg. English LOL there are a few keys(mostly vowels/or combos of them) missing from the English keyboard I need for "southern drawl" I type slowly, talk slowly, and think too fast for either activity. LOL

Jeff

 

[saladin]

I hear and understand completely. You should have seen my slow typing finger trying to get through over 300 pages of my dissertation and nearly half of it in Hebrew! (southern hebrew, of course) It was a hoot.

 

[saladin]

By the way, geo. is one fine fellow. I coached his oldest son in soccer several years ago.

 

[RiddleMe]

Still figuring out the new layout so I'll just post to find this thread later.

 

[Spangled]

Here are the postings that Bentley posted on the Heritage Large Fowl Thread.





Just for the record ... I object to the partial quote above being posted in this thread when I specifically made it clear that I was sticking to the subject of the other thread (Heritage Large Fowl Thread) with the above question. These questions were not posed with the topic of this current Biodersity [sic] vs. Classic Animal breeding thread in mind. I cry, "Foul." If I want to post any questions in this thread about the topic of this thread, then I'll do it myself.

I also object to the question being credited to me when in fact it is a question posed by Robert Blosl (which I made abundantly clear in my original post) in his original post that started the Heritage Large Fowl Thread. You can see that here: Robert Blosl The first question is Robert Blosl's question from a completely different thread and doesn't belong here. Again, I cry, "Foul."

I hate to be snippy, but I don't like being misrepresented. Not sure how else to make it clear that my above posting included a quote from someone else (not me) and that I intended the second question was posted in and intended for the Heritage Large Fowl Thread.

 

[catdaddyfro]

By the way, geo. is one fine fellow. I coached his oldest son in soccer several years ago.

I have gathered that too in the short year or so of blowing his mind and I'm sure cracking him up too along the way, with my Horse poo here and there. LOL

This reminds me of a bumper sticker I once read somewhere here(BYC) or actually on a bumper(

) It read: please don't confuse my dialect with my intellect; I fit in here somewhere, maybe 'bout midways, LOL

OK back to business here sorry for thread killing(highjacking)LOL

Jeff

 

[cgmccary]

The first question is Robert Blosl's question from a completely different thread and doesn't belong here. Again, I cry, "Foul."

I hate to be snippy, but I don't like being misrepresented. Not sure how else to make it clear that my above posting included a quote from someone else (not me) and that I intended the second question was posted in and intended for the Heritage Large Fowl Thread.

Fair enough. You've made your point, and it is understandable. I also think it is fair to intermingle and post the question here. It is still a relevant, good, fair question. These subjects are intertwined.

 

[cgmccary]

I did not think anyone was confused but (as verb):

OUTCROSS: To breed chickens that are not directly related to one another (cock & hen are same breed).

CROSSBREED: To mate a cock and hen of two different breeds.

 

[Robert Blosl]

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Genetic Divergence
« Thread Started on Feb 7, 2012, 10:32am »​

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http://www.theburkelab.org/reprints/Evolution2007.pdf
I have not had time to dig into this term but I do wonder in this article I found from Georgia on plants if there is somewhat more of a
hybrid kick in the flock when you make a cross from one line say in Illinois and the other line in Tennessee’s. Also, a term I thought of
is Closed strain Out Crossing as a term to make it understood. A closed strain in my view is a line purchased from a breeder say twenty five years
ago and no outside blood has been introduced. You use a method of line breeding which I like Rotational Line breeding of four families rotating a good male from one pen to the right
each year for say 16 years. Then you pick up a three year old prov-en hen and cross her to your pen one male and then rotate her son back to the right to pen two the next year
Put two of her daughters back into pen one and go on for another 16 years.
Closed Out crossing, Closed blood line Hybrid vigor is a term that comes to my mind doing this.
Let me explain a story told to me by a Turkey breeder from Wisconsin who raised bronzed turkeys for us to eat each year. He had 15 families. He rotted the best Tom Turkey
to the right pen each year. He had done this for over twenty five years. Now the Tom was Artificial inseminated to the females as the breasts where so large they could not mate
naturally. This is how I cam up with this term and idea for my White Plymouth Rocks and Rhode Island Red large fowl. That is how I breed my Rhode Island Red Bantams today.
He told me a story of a fellow in the 1920s who had a fantastic strain of Doroc Hogs from Wisconsin. He had at the time the best show line and production line in the USA. He had two sons one lived in Southern Wisconsin and another lived in Southern Illinois. They both line breed their fathers hogs for over 50 years each one would swap a sow the best one of the year every 8 years and that would give them new blood for their farm. They did this till they grew to their 80s and retired from even when these men where in their old age their hogs where equal in value and type as their father had done when they were young. boys. As I paint this picture I hope you see what I am trying to get across. If the term GENETIC DIVERGENCE applies to this method so be it.
It would not be hard to do in any breed of fowl. I am doing it with my Rhode Island Red bantams with three breeders. I have a partner in Gray Call ducks in Oregon and we have done it for five years. We have the same strain as a fellow who is a master breeder in New York. I have a new partner in Canada who has my Large Fowl white rocks and he has the same Gray Call line from New York and his line has been line breed and closed for six year. I have one of his drakes to cross onto my line.
If anyone else who has some views on this or have heard others do it please put in your two cents. I tell you again the number one reason new people fail with Heritage Large Fowl in three to five years is crossing stains. You end up with more headaches than positive results. You are in the long run money ahead to stick with a strain of say Rhode Island Reds like Don Nelson, Adrian Radamacher, or Greg Chamness my old Mohawk line then cross any of these three lines onto each other. Even White Rock Chickens will give you three good years of cleaning up before you get stable off spring. The reason for crossing in most people is fresh vigor or new blood. Look forward to your ideas. bob

Posted on another board. Any thoughts on this is this the correct term for doing such a breeding program. BOB

I posted this on another site a few months ago so I will post it on this new thread.

I have come up with a term to satisfy me for what I think this method is and I will call it Buddy Line Breeding I had a better term this moaning when I woke up but after going out side and playing with the chic ens I for got the term I came up with with I got out of bed. I guess thats ok for a 66 year old guy who is a nurse who works with Memory care Patients. Hang around those who forget and you will sooner catch what they have.

Any way my method is old fashion breeding. Fit of the Fittest Principle, Prepoentency in the breeders like will beget like. I pour it on the breeders and put breeding pressures on certain trains and they come around sooner than latter. The only issue I have to worry about is time and inbreeding. That is why it has been my idea to have a partner who has the same strain of birds that you have and you share new birds every five years and you will never get into trouble with inbreeding yet you both have a old strain that has all the nasty color issues breed out and kind of fixed you just have to zig zag in and out to keep the color stable. The breed I am talking about is Rhode Island Reds. A pretty difficult color pattern in some ways but if you under stand the laws of how the color comes and goes it can be mastered. I have interviewed about ten old master breeders who where tops in their time be for they died 30 years ago. Read all the Rhode Island Red literature and just do it.

I would just like to know if there is a term among breeders for this method that I have described. It will work for 100 more years and maybe cockers have done it for 200 years in the USA but what the heck is it called. Dr. Miller who came on here about 9 months ago called it the above topicGenetic Divergence .

He then drooped out of the picture maybe died so could not pick his brain any further.

Hope you have a educational conversation on the subject. I only have a breeders education of a eight grader so anything that requires a Masters Degree in Poultry Science will go over my head. I am just a old fashion breeder of Reds. bob blosl

 

[RiddleMe]

A subline is any branch of a line tracing back to a common ancestor, so in the above example with hogs, if I understood the description, they were just crossing sublines. There's been some studies on the use of sublines in breeding strategies, including the introduction of genetic diversity through subline divergence and the reduction of inbreeding coefficients when crossing sublines. The results indicate that due to this divergence the breeders won't reach homogeneity as quickly as keeping one line. But, since these studies were focused on lab mice, where genetic diversity isn't desireable, so they decided it wasn't an optimal breeding practice. In situations where its a good thing to maintain both genetic diversity and a "backup population" this is a very solid breeding strategy. Anyway, just my 1/2 cent.