Biodiversity vs. Classic Animal breeding

[saladin]

Hi,
I don't think that was a false dichotomy. When I wrote earlier I was speaking of the Biodiversity Movement (they). Not biodiversity as a result of genetics (it).
In any conversation a classic animal breeder has with anyone in the Biodiversity Movement, there will come a moment when the Biodiversity advocate will dig in their heels and say, "No more". It is usually when the classic animal breeder starts discussing the importance of "points of a breed" in a breeding program. Since they don't believe in the importance of "points" of the creature, except as it attends structure and vitality needed to work, this is where the Biodiversity Movement and classic animal breeding part ways.
On the other hand, biodiversity as a genetic result can be obtained in many ways regardless of breeding program or political views.
Best,
Karen

I did not understand your reference to Biodiversity as a movement.

As you note, the two advocates are coming from seperate sides of the fence though. From the traditional or classic animal breeders position though there can be several points that are argued which might make sense to the biodiversity side.
1. Several breeders who maintain closed flocks of the same breed have 'created' biodiversity by the sheer fact that their seperate lines are closed: thus each is in some sense different.
2. Keeping chickens which copulate 'willy-nilly' (technical term here in the South: LOL) does not insure biodiversity. As a matter of fact, it insures the opposite because within a given population allowed to copulate at will they will eventually be highly inbred. This may not be a good thing because traits that are unwanted will begin to creep in which could ultimately lead to the populations decline or extinction.
3. Proper selection and culling which begins with health and vigor, as it always should, will ensure the population the best chance of survival and improvement. When dealing with domesticated farm breeds this can only be accomplished by human selection.

 

[3riverschick]

I did not understand your reference to Biodiversity as a movement.

Yes, it is a 'movement'. A large group of people with a common goal who are inflexible in their beliefs and proselitize their views.
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As you note, the two advocates are coming from seperate sides of the fence though. From the traditional or classic animal breeders position though there can be several points that are argued which might make sense to the biodiversity side. I agree. However, one will never get them to compromise their beliefs. And they will never agree with classic animal breeding beliefs to a point where it might make a difference in their breeding views. Their beliefs , as they use them, cannot result in an animal as bred from classic animal breeding beliefs.
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1. Several breeders who maintain closed flocks of the same breed have 'created' biodiversity by the sheer fact that their seperate lines are closed: thus each is in some sense different.
Absolutely agree.
2. Keeping chickens which copulate 'willy-nilly' (technical term here in the South: LOL) does not insure biodiversity. As a matter of fact, it insures the opposite because within a given population allowed to copulate at will they will eventually be highly inbred. This may not be a good thing because traits that are unwanted will begin to creep in which could ultimately lead to the populations decline or extinction.
I agree.
3. Proper selection and culling which begins with health and vigor, as it always should, will ensure the population the best chance of survival and improvement. When dealing with domesticated farm breeds this can only be accomplished by human selection. Yes, it begins for us here. For Biodiversty Movement adherents, this is the totality of their beliefs.
Great points!
Best Success,
Karen

 

[Robert Blosl]

Woke up this moaning thinking about this thread. Climate change on poultry and other livestock such as Horses and Beef cattle?

How does a change of climate say from Indiana or Mo to say Mobile Alabama have a effect on say chicks that where hatched there and raised down here. Example 25 Golden Se bite chicks where purchased and raised down her from John Wonderluch strain in St. Louis Mo. After five months they looked like scrubs from the feed store. Five died from the heat and humidity. John drove down here on a Judging tour and st oped in to see them. He agreed they dont look very good but the brother and sisters of these look great back home. I tell you what I will give you the money you paid for these birds plus $25 for feed and let me take them home and finish them out to see what happens. You got a deal said the man from Mobile Alabama. Four months latter John took four of these chicks to a show in the mid west and won res champion bantam of the show on a pullet that was spending the summer down here with us. She and her brothers went from scrubs to nice show birds in just four months. What caused the mutation on these excellent show bantams.???

I sent 25 chicks Rhode Island Reds to Dennis Meyers in Ohio and he sent me 25 of the prettiest chicks that he has been raising in Ohio for ten years. The same strain as mine from Thompson Georgia. My chicks at six months of age looked like culls. Every one that came to see them said where did you get these scrubs from. His birds once the heat and humidity kicked up in the summer in June started to not grow. They started to die buy July and August. After it was over I had six birds left two males and four females. Two of the females looked ok the males had no tail feathers. Both strains came from Mr. E W Reese in Georgia mine four years be for and my friends ten years be for. Why did they do this.? I told this story to a beef cattle breeder down here who had Registered Angus. He said when we would by a new bull we will not buy a bull unless he is below the Mas ion Dixon Line. Its just a waist of time to get a bull from Colorado or Wisconsin and have them down here. The climate is just to harsh on them.

So does the climate mutate or cause things to change in a bird even if they where born and hatched in the mid west and then brought down here in this hot and humid climate? I lived in Wisconsin for almost two years my wife and I could not stand the climate it made any area of our body that was once injured as kids in sports or what ever hurt like no Buddy's business. We had to leave as we could not take the winters. When I came from Washington State to Mississippi to live in the Air Force during the summer if I drove a un air conditioned car 45 minutes in August I would be soaking wet with sweat be for I got to my destination to work. I could not take the heat. It took me nearly ten years to handle it. Now I can not take the winters.

So think about this what effect does climate change have on livestock and poultry. This again goes to my theory of Raising a closed line breed strain of fowl five hundred miles apart and then when you exchange a male or female to each others flock its just like a com pleat out cross of someone Else's strain yet the strain is still a closed strain for say 30 years. Only difference is a different set of eye balls culling and selecting , different climate, different feed grown in that region and different water. May be colder than where I live such as Knoxville Tenn but once the switch is made every five or seven years its like a jolt of new vigor into my flock and his flock.

Look forward to your reply and thoughts on my above description of closed buddy line breeding.

 

[cgmccary]

Quote:
What you speak to are DIFFERENT evolutionary forces at work. Before my current occupation, I was a geologist, specifically a micro-paleontologist. Entire graduate school classes are devoted to these evolutionary forces. There are several things to consider. There is natural selection, mutation, sexual selection and genetic drift (and others). Each is different. Simplistically, a mutation is a random change in the DNA and there are different types. (i.e. There are different kinds of mutations -- too complicated to go into on a thread.) Some mutations can be beneficial and some can be detrimental, others, no effect. For example, a well known mutation in humans occurred two or three different times, separately, apart, though random & not related (Northern Europe, Africa are well documented) for our tolerance of dairy {lactose}. This mutation was random and by chance and was NOT caused by the environment (mutations generally are NOT caused-- they're random); however an exception would be damage to DNA caused by radiation or chemicals, etc. I found better explanations than I could word online to the other forces:

Quote:
Quote:



[FONT=georgia, serif]Quote:[/FONT] [FONT=georgia, serif]Genetic drift is random in that it is a chance happening -- like an meteor hitting the rooster with the longest, fastest legs (who would have made it under natural selection or perhaps YOUR human selection cause you wanted longer legs)[/FONT]

 

[RiddleMe]

Karen, here's a link to one of the articles, I'll try to see if I can find a few more of them... The second link was another article I found interesting wrt sublines and genetic variance.
http://www.journalofanimalscience.org/content/71/10/2631.full.pdf
http://www.genetics.org/content/85/3/529.full.pdf


Edited to add - Both studies are a little older, especially the second one, still interesting discussion.

I got sub lines from this article you posted  which could be what I have in my Rhode Island Reds they are 100 year old strain today in the hands of three good breeders. If one of the breeders ships a male to a breeder about 700 hundred miles away to cross into his strain this must be a sub strain of the strain strain???.

Then the Genetic Variance must pop up as he lives in Illinois and the other breeder lives in Alabama with totally different climates which should cause some mutation to growth, feather development ect.

One interesting thing I have seen this year with two breeds of fowl. Master Breeder in one state has a female line. That is his females normally win best of breed and champion English.

Down here its the opposite. The males win Champion English and the females are of the lesser quality than the Indiana strain.

I have noticed this in White Leghorn Bantams. The master breeder in Arkansas had a female line. Down here in my climate I have a great male line opposite of what he could accomplish.

More to try to learn. bob

It sounds like each of you have a subline or sub strain of the parent line/strain, and when you are trading males you are crossing sublines/sub strains. However, there are some limitations on how many generations back the common ancestors can be for them to still be comsidered sublines and not just distinct, but related, lines. Not sure what that limit would be with poultry or how many sub sub sublines can be developed... Above my genetic pay grade.

Genetic divergence due to geographic factors is a common occurrence, it can range from a small change, maybe a slightly larger comb/wattle to acclimate to a hotter climate, to complete speciation given enough time. I would imagine in chickens where so many other things are sex linked it shouldn't be too surprising to learn some forms of genetic divergence have been sex linked as well, though it hadn't occurred to me until you presented it.

 

[3riverschick]

some reading. pick and choose from the books and research plus interesting articles from 1886 on acclimation, color and origin of term Pile (Pyle)..
Jianxia Wang
The effects of different feathering types in broilers kept under normal and high environmental temperatures on performance and metabolism characteristics
http://tinyurl.com/bqvkkxn
google books preview: http://tinyurl.com/cjdr5f8
Discussion starts o page 95.
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Advances In Ecological Research: Birds And Climate Change By A. Anders Pape Moeller, Hal Caswell, Wolfgang Fiedler
http://tinyurl.com/cwsswn8 Page 126
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Poultry Production in Hot Climates
books.google.com/books?isbn=1845932587
N. J. (Nuhad Joseph) Daghir - 2008 - Preview - More editions
The first edition of this book was published in 1995 that deals with various sectors of the poultry industry in hot climates. The new second edition includes 12
http://tinyurl.com/c5lyzax
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Poultry world - Volumes 15-16 - 1886
Pages 164 and 165
Acclimation of Fowls.
Mr. E. W. S., of Charleston, 8. C, writes: "lam a reader of The Poultry World, but never have purchased fowls from the north, as I have always heard, and it is the general opinion here, I believe, that fowls brought from northern localities cannot stand our climate. Is there any means of acclimating fowls; if so, can you refer me to some means of so doing?"
It is undoubtedly true that fowls require acclimation, when removed from a cold to a warm climate or vice versa, and we can easily understand that if the removal is unseasonable that trouble and loss might ensue. Yet it is perfectly easy to satisfy any one that the difficulties are greatly exaggerated, and that the loss need be extremely small or reduced to a point where it absolutely ceases. We are constantly importing into this country fowls from abroad, England, France and Italy, and little or no loss results therefrom. Their systems may receive a greater or less shock according to the difference in the climate of their native and their adopted homes, but the shock does not prevent them from breeding successfully. In some cases it certainly stimulates the reproductive organs, and the fowls for a few generations lay more eggs in their adopted than they did in their native home.
If our southern brethren desire to purchase fowls from northern breeders they should not hesitate to do so. The best time is in the autumn months, and the fowls removed from a colder to a warmer climate are, or ought to be, grateful for the change. By the time that summer with its excessive heat arrives they have become somewhat accustomed to the new climate and very little trouble need be apprehended. Even the heavily-feathered Asiatics do well in the south.
We shou'd not advise the purchase of birds north in the months of June and July, for they would doubtless suffer somewhat from the longer-continued and more excessive heat of the south. This would have a debilitating effect and render them much more subject to attacks of disease and less able to successfully withstand them. But if they are purchased at any time from September to January we think that they will do well. The "general opinion" to the contrary may be a mere prejudice or it may be founded upon a few cases of unseasonable introduction of fowls, but we seriously question whether it has any substantial reason for existing. At any rate, we do not hesitate to advise our querist to purchase such fowls as he may desire of northern breeders.
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Page 165
Color.
Some of our correspondents have discussed the question whether fowls tend to grow lighter by breeding. This is a question of importance to every breeder, and worthy of more attention being given to it in the future than has been given in the past. Judging from the statements made by our correspondents there is need of more facts. The accumulation of facts is one of the most important steps in the advancement of science. The old deductive method of starting with theories has been displaced by the more accurate inductive method of beginning with facts. Until this change of method was adopted physical science made but a trifling advance; after the change, the progress amounted to almost a revolution. Old theories were shown to be either false or incomplete, they failed to explain a great body of facts, and had therefore to be set aside. New theories, drawn from the facts themselves, were substituted, and were tested by each new fact as it appeared, and if they were found capable of explaining these, the theory became accepted as a scientific principle.
Facts in reference to color are needed in order to answer a number of questions in breeding. Do fowls grow lighter by breeding? Does the cock or the hen have the greater influence upon the color of the progeny? What is the exact effect of the union of two different colors or of two shades of the same color? Is one color more permanent than another? These and other similar questions await an answer, and until a great body of facts are accumulated can never receive an authoritative answer. But how are the facts to be obtained?
The best method of obtaining such facts would be for each breeder to open a book, wherein should be recorded a careful and exact description of the male and the females mated together and the progeny resulting from such mating. If each breeder would do this for a series of years and then would publish in The Poultry World an exact transcript of this book, the combined results would afford most valuable material for the scientific student of breeding. If in addition to these facts there should be an account of the method of feeding and care, the nature of the soil and other surrounding circumstances, the value of the record would be greatly enhanced. These secondary facts would serve to explain certain differences in the
results obtained, and make clear and harmonious what otherwise might seem unintelligible and contradictory.
It is some trouble to do this, we admit, but each breeder's record would more than compensate him for the trouble he had taken, and the comparison of all these records would richly repay all who had helped to make them. At any rate, it is impossible to reduce poultry-breeding to anything like an exact science, without going to a great deal of trouble in the accumulation of facts. There arc many men, who are breeding poultry, eminently qualified for this undertaking, and who would find great pleasure in gathering these facts if they once began the work systematically. But more than one or two need to do this, to arrive at the best re suits. Concerted action is indispensable.
Occasionally a practical poultrymau writes in a somewhat complaining vein against those whom he denominates theorists. One very able poultryman thus writes in another publication: "Let those that know give us points and not those that work upon theory. Theory and practical experience arc two different things." And again: "There are many breeders that can hit the mark and give full as many points in breeding as those that now endeavor to fill the columns of poultry periodicals with some sense and a good deal of nonsense." If such practical poultrymen, instead of complaining about theories and theorists, would only set themselves the task of accumulating facts and then make these facts public, they would succeed in correcting the false theories advanced and give their theoretical brethren much food for thought. We need all the fact's, and the practical poultryman, the man who breeds his stock and does not simply buy for the sake of exhibiting, is the man to furnish them. Let such men gather the stones that are needed to build the temple of scientific poultrybreeding, and they will not only help their brethren but themselves.
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The Origin of the Term Pile.
As we have Pile Games and Pile Leghorns, it is an interesting inquiry how the term "pile" came into vogue.
By some it is explained, like the term "pied" used in. reference to pigeons, as referring to a bird with two strongly contrasting colors. The Magpie used to be frequently spoken of by our forefathers as the "pie," and pile is supposed to be only a shortened form of "pie-like" or "picly." From the latter form to pile is an easy transition.
By others, the following explanation is given: "Charles II. is said to have introduced Piles. According to an old cocking tradition, one of those light-colored birds from the south was pitted against a noted black cock from the west in one of the royal mains. Their dashing style and rapid evolutions electrified the company, causing the merry monarch to exclaim, 'They are playing 'cross and pile."
Thence the name." The game of cross and pile was once very popular, and in a wardrobe roll of Edward II. the following entry occurs: "Item, paid to Henry, the King's barber, for money he lent to the King to play cross and pile, 5 shillings."
Still others derive the term from the Latin word pilalui, (cap or capped with red or white.)
The orthography varies with different writers, "pyle," "poyle" and "pile" occurring. The author of an old and scarce work on cocking has the following stanza:
"The scarlet cock my lord likes best; The bishop backs the grey with starling breast; The knight is for the jAte, or else the black; The squire says, no cock like dun yellow back." In "The Cocker'' by Morgan, and "Cocking" by Howlett, we find "pyle." Sketchley, Boswell and others spell it "pile." Flemming and many old breeders gave it as "poyle." But the orthography has become pretty well settled by usage and the spelling is now uniformly "pile," and as such is likely to remain, except with those writers who delight in archaic forms.
One gets a lively idea of the state of society from the stanza quoted above, when not only "my lord," but the bishop, the knight and the squire were all interested in cock-fighting. "Tempora mutantur et in ill-is mutamur.'' The times certainly have changed and we have changed with them. A cock-fighting bishop would be a rare person in these days. We once knew a clergyman who kept a trotting horse, but even that provoked a deal of adverse criticism. The days of coekingfighting clergymen, and, indeed, of cockfighters of any class regarded as respectable, have fortunately passed never to return.
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[tadkerson]

Biodiversity

Genetic variation

Genetic drift or allelic drift

Genetic divergence

Sub Lines
I was looking at some of my notes I saved on my method of line breeding with a partner today and found these terms.


I wonder if any of you would like to spend some time on these subjects.


This past weekend I became a partner with White Plymouth Rocks with a beginner. He lives a few hundred miles from me and I will help him with his birds each year and I will keep my two breeding pens goning down here for about four or five years. Then we exchage I think Five ckls from our breeding program in five years. We will raise these males up and pick the best one to cross onto our line for more vigor but the original blood line is mine and is 30 years old with out any outside strains only one cross from a breeder ten years ago from Oklahoma who has the same strain as I have.

Look forward to any of your comments. I hope this tread is not dead. Still so much to learn about genetics and breeding. bob

I am going to add my two cents and what I will add mostly deals with how words are used in this string,

Biodiversity- this is a term that relates to ecology and the different kinds of organisms ( bacteria, plants, fungi, protists, animals) that live in a given area. High biodiversity means lots of different kinds of animals plants etc. Low biodiversity means very few different kinds of plants and animals etc.

Genetic variation is the term that should be used to indicate that different chickens are genetically different. If you could look at the genes in one line they would be different than the genes from another line- that is genetic diversity. You want different lines of birds with different genes. This will insure that the gene pool ( all the different genes that could be collected from every bird) is large. Genetic diversity within a variety is good. Because of the variety standard every bird within the variety must carry the same genes for the plumage color and other standard characteristics. Genetics goes way beyond the standard ( color, size etc.); having a genetically diverse population when it comes to biochemistry and the histocompatibility complex is a good thing. Having the genetic diversity between lines is ok; in other words, one line is genetically different than another. You do not want every chicken to be genetically the same- that is a genetic monoculture and that would be bad. You want people to have different lines that have different genetics this will maintain a genetically diverse population- the population would include all the different lines put together.

If a persons line starts to show susceptibility to disease, low hatch rate, infertility or low fertility, then a person would need to introduce some new genes into the line. They would get the new genes from another breeder.

Genetic Drift- refers to how many organisms in a sampled ( the scientist collects the sample) population contain a specific allele or gene. This term deals with the inheritance of a gene through natural breeding and how often the allele or gene shows up in the population through natural selection . This does not apply to breeding chickens because there is no natural selection in breeding birds. Breeders skew the drift toward genes they want to be in their line or genes they do not want in their line. They can increase the frequency of a gene in their birds or decrease the frequency in their birds.

Breeders are causing genetic divergence by not introducing new genes into their line. Genetic divergence occurs over time- one line of birds produced by one breeder over time becomes genetically different than another breeders line because of mutations. An example would be if Bob ( one breeder) and Anne ( another breeder) started out with birds that were from one line and genetically the same. Over a period of 30 years no new genes were introduced into either line. If the line that Bob has and the line that Anne has (after 30 years) are genetically different because of mutations, then genetic divergence would have occurred.


Subline- is a line created by breeding a specific pair, trio or small group of animals from a specific line. What a person does is breaks up a population (of a single line) into two or more sublines. Then each subline is inbred. The sublines may have over time become genetically different from the other lines. You no longer have a line but sublines of the original line.

Tim

 

[Chris09]

The term "Pile" or "Pyle" is a derived from the heraldic term for Triangle or Wedge Shape that has one along the top, narrowing down to a point near the bottom of a shield.

The Pile or Pyle on a chicken is the Wing Triangle on a "White" Fowl.





Chris

 

[Robert Blosl]

Quote: Very nice thank you Tim. I got to run to the post office but I saw a few things in there that caught my eye. I had a friend email me telling me he has a chance to get some R I Red large fowl from a new guy who got his from a old guy like me who has had them for about thrity years. I told him even though they only live say a hundred miles a apart one can have two pair and the other two pair and they can line breed these two family's and raise about fifty chicks per home and then in four to six years swap the best bird of the year to each other cross them in and do it again for five years. It would be a closed strain and they would be breeding out the crap and have a nice uniform line when they look at their females in Oct people would day the look like peas in a pod.

Thanks again. I will ask some more questions latter. This is big time stuff so you lurkers soak it in but dont get over whelmed on this stuff. It took me 30 years to figure out my line breeding chart so maybe I can learn something here with these students of Genetic. bob

 

[catdaddyfro]

The term "Pile" or "Pyle" is a derived from the heraldic term for Triangle or Wedge Shape that has one along the top, narrowing down to a point near the bottom of a shield.

The Pile or Pyle on a chicken is the Wing Triangle on a "White" Fowl.





Chris

I could see where that could be somewhat relevant Chris but I thought the Pyle variety was named so because of the color(red) is concentrated all in the "pyle zone/areas"

not sure if this even is the thread for this discussion too

Jeff

Also read somewhere that that the Pyle may have been derived from a province or town in England too? IDK