Biodiversity vs. Classic Animal breeding

[saladin]

fmp,
I'll only say a quick word about your legbars and what you wrote.

CAN THE PURISTS!

I've been involved in historic preservation with poultry a long long time; as a matter of fact, I was involved with it before many of these folks were born. What they don't understand is the whole concept of Grading which you know is a traditional form of breeding. It is not even worth the breath it takes to argue with someone who doesn't understand basic breeding techniques and how they are utilized to improve stock.

 

[Arielle]

Saladin, are you talking about the term I know as 'grading up'?

A breeding method with many good uses. THis is another use than you are talking about I think:

I used a suitable mare of "native" breeding and bred her to a very good stallion of Breed D and now her grandchildren , and even a number of her children, look like Breed D. Of course, selecting the right stallions was very important to this process.

In this case this method was used because many stallions were being imported in the US, but not the mares due to the high expense; to increase the numbers, native mares were used initially; then as good halfbreds and some mares were imported, use of native mares were banned.

 

[saladin]

Yes, that is what poultry folks refer to when using the term 'Grading.'

With chickens we have some 'basic' rules:
1. Keep the male line pure.
2. The key is selection, selection, selection.
3. 'Pure' (such a relative term) is considered after 8 generations; though you find good folk who use it after the 5th or 6th generation.

 

[Arielle]

In a breed of horses the stallions are put in a specific "book" based on the number of generations of "pure". So breeders know immediately by his book, how "pure" he is. As the population has increased they have increased the number of generations to be in the "purest" book. 6 generations as I remember, it has been a while since I read the specifics. THis is one of the top performing breeds worldwide.

Having said this, most of these breeds I'm referring to will include a high performing stallion, or a son of one,from another breed to get his genetics and test breed him on the mares before allowing him more offspring. In the end it is all about selection. A promising stallion could get canned if he is not improving the population enough.

 

[saladin]

That last statement should apply to a cock being used in a grading program as well: very good insight.

 

[gallorojo]

I would like to know where these " biodiversity movement" people are? Do they have an organization? A website, journal, or a book that is influential for them? A google search only turns up your threads here on BYC. Strange that a " movement" has no web presence and no one to respond to this thread from the other point of view. " movement" implies an organization and a coherent set of beliefs, and something of a leader. Where and what are these? Sorry to sound cynical but this seems more like a personal gripe with one or two BYC posters who espouse some bizarre views on breeding, which the OP clearly despises. I dont see the " movement" that all the BYC experts have now started to refute. The whole thread seems like just a way to jab some folks some may not agree with.

 

[saladin]

lol gallo you are one smart cookie.

 

[Arielle]

I will speak up just so you can slam me.

I think one of the purposes of BOb BLosl' efforts is to not only preserve old heritage lines but to also keep up the genetic diversity. With the commercial lines of poultry which far outnumber the "heritage" or "antique" birds, the possibility for a diaster is very possible. THere is a very good reason why protocols are in place to protect commercial flocks.
Understand that I am not downing commercial flocks at all. THey can produce our food supply very cost effectively.

But I also recognize the value of backyard chickens should a disaster occur. In theory having a wide variety of populations of any animal provides the genetic variation to survive diseases, or local disasters.

Variety is the spice of life. I don't think there must be only ONE way to breed animals. All depends on your goals and limits financially and space wise and similar resources.

I think it is unfortunate that some people perservere in jabs; I struggle to write and share ideas depite 4 strokes. Tell me you would be so lucky as to be semi functional after 4 strokes.

I am here to learn and share ideas. THis thread is turning out to be just another opportunity to slam other theories in breeding.

One of the breedsof horses that I mentioned above became recognized as the best producers of jumpers and dressage horses in the world BECAUSE they didn't limit themselves to native stock. THey searched for the best lines in other countries and brought them home to test them. THey put dollars into research and then implimented the findings into selecting genetically healthier stallions to alter the population. TO produce a physically strong horse, that can handle the training all the way to international level competition. No small feat. THese horses were bred for performance. ANd when investigations genetiiically showed that the genes for jumping interferes with dressage performance, the books were split. Jumpers beget jumpers; dressage beget dressage. Heavy selection and willingness to use outside blood to bring in the necessary genes to add to the native pool created a superior sport horse, one that surpasses the closed registries that will not use much outside blood.

THis sounds like the beginning of a lot of chicken breeds I've read about in the old books.Sometimes you need new blood to make improvements so that the given domestic species can produce better in a given area (environment and trait).

I was hoping for interesting information on this thread. . . . it seems this is another thread not worth my time.

 

[saladin]

A.,

I think you took gallo way too seriously. I don't think he'd disagree (that's up to him) with the need for 'genetics' in the bank. As a matter of fact, he's part of the oldest poultry preservationist organization in the United States and Canada. It is commendable anytime some desires to have some old spares around: that's what we are all about.

Yet, it ask a basic question. Is this a matter just for the sake of arguement or are there actually people out there who are organized and trying to do things another way. Based on his search he determined there is not such organization of folk that's all.

 

[Arielle]

Is gallo referring to the Heritage thread or this new thread?

I for one like to hear all views and theories. THere is not one way of breeding; the choice depends on the genetic material available and the long term goals.