Black Copper Marans bloodlines

[drom]

Krys109uk has the best theory/explanation I have heard so far on why crossing bloodlines can sometimes mess with your egg color. Let me see if I can find the post....

 

[drom]

I can't find it but it was something to the effect of there being more than locus involved in dark egg color and that birds in different lines may carry different dark egg genes.
So if you cross lines you can't really predict if you will dilute color or improve it. My BCs are F1 from a cross between two completely different lines and they have pretty decent egg color. Not sure what I might get in the second generation. More of the exact same I hope. If I do get good egg color in the second gen, in spite of the fact that I think feather color will be more complicated and less predictable, health, vigor and size should theoretically be better.

You would think there would be, by this time, some known nicks that are good or bad from people experimenting with crossing lines. Anyway, it would be nice if it were at least that simple.

 

[cottagegarden]

everythingjane-I think you are way ahead already since you understand breeding and can apply it to your birds. Since you are my line buddy we should stay in touch!!I dont have time to go search out the pics you posted of your birds on the thread, but they were NICE birds, you have a GOOD start. As they mature see what you want to select for, body structure, feathered legs, coloring or lack thereof and that will point you in a direction. From the egg pics of the breeder two back in the line the egg color could be darker(although not as light as some blue/splash Marans)Now, you are the third person to have them that you know about, and maybe your breeder selected for a bit darker eggs so you may be better off, you will know in about 3 months (0: . In those pics there are some birds you can see with feathered legs, and the Copper on the Rooster is good, its hard to tell with the hens. So that's what you have. With getting new stock you will have to see if you want to breed for standard Blue Copper and then choose birds to compliment what you have. You will have no problem adding a good Wade Jeane Black Copper as you can breed the two. Blue/Splash can wash out over time, I think its good to have Black in the mix anyway, keeps your colors/lacing refined. I have been looking at some good breeders of Blue and Blue/Black Copper Marans lately with great dark eggs so I can let you know how it works out.
I agree totally with what you said about helping each other, if we could bypass some of the line difficulties we will all be better for it. Time and money are not to be wasted these days.

This is what you will be working with:

Blue/Black Splash Genetics


Blue X Blue = 50% Blue, 25% Black, 25% Splash
Blue X Splash = 50% Blue, 50% Splash
Splash X Splash = 100% Splash
Splash X Black = 100% Blue
Blue X Black = 50% Blue, 50% Black
Black X Black = 100% Black

 

[Solsken Farm]

Hi Everythingjane. I will share the issues with the lines of Copper Blacks I have, if that is helpful

I have 3 flocks currently.

Line 1-I have CBMs that are from breeders who got their birds from Bev Davis. I received very dark eggs and some a bit lighter (I'd say 5-8-only a few were 8s, lots were 6s). The pullets have a bit less copper than is optimal. Conformationally, they are looking fantastic. All feather shanked big birds. One breeder struggles with an issue where "blacks" pop up. I had 2 out of 7 roos have that issue, so they were sold. They are only about 4-5 months, so are not mature yet, and should begin laying soon. One cutie was in the nest box yesterday.

Line 2- CBMs from Jesse Bryant who states his line is Wade Jeane. Not sure if this is true or not. I had to heavily cull my birds. Comb quality needs to be improved. Too much red in the breast of the roos and a few of the hens. I got 50/50 with too much red on the roos. I could tell I would as they were reddish at day olds. Some of the tails are really nice, but some exhibited a touch more upright than I like. The eggs are very dark and I am thinking they might get darker. I get 8 or 9 eggs a day and only a handful have been less than a 5. Most are 6s and 7s.

Line 3- Davis/Grisham- Again, not directly from them but Mergmet. These hens have a touch of copper lacing (which may be a DQ). I only hatched one roo and he has a bit more copper on the breast than the proposed standard calls for as do the hens. I will be culling this roo and adding the girls to my Line 1, and watching them. (I have an extra roo that is very nice to put with them. I may also had a few of the culled pullets from Line 2. So I will be able to experiment with crossing lines with this group. My cockerel for this line should be ready for action in a month or so. Eggs are average about a 5, maybe closer to a 4. Not super dark, but very consistent.

This is as much info as I can give. I hope it helps. I hope others will share their info too.

Good luck! It sounds like you have a great start!

Edited for typos.

 

[cottagegarden]

Thank you for sharing that!!
This could be one of the most important things we can do to make our birds better
and we should start a new thread just for observations on lines. This info has to be easy to find for people and updated as we learn. I'll give it a shot and maybe we can start with this post
if SF could copy and paste it.

 

[everythingjane]

drom- I think that's a good theory.. could explain a lot..

cottage garden- my little group is pictured on my BYC Page (link is under my name)... I should update them since the've grown so much. The black copper rooster is huge and the only one with significantly feathered feet.. He's also only one with copper showing so far. I see signs of foot feathering on some of the others.. I guess only time will tell.. he's so far ahead of the rest..

Solksen Farm- Thank you! This was exactly what I was hoping to learn... I'm copying this for future reference

 

[Krys109uk]

Krys109uk has the best theory/explanation I have heard so far on why crossing bloodlines can sometimes mess with your egg color. Let me see if I can find the post....

This was me?
As the opinion assigned to me doesn't quite fit with my opinion, I feel I ought to state my opinion. I hope no-one is offended......it is only an opinion....not cast in stone fact .....oh & it could be a bit of a ramble:/

I only know of one gene which acts to lighten egg colour & I don't think it would normally be present in Marans. I think it could be an issue in the blue/green egg layers.

I think Marans have been rather exploited by some people just seeking money. Such birds could either, have poor type, lay lighter eggs, or the egg colour/ type might be inconsistent either in them or their offspring.

On the other hand some people have taken great pains to improve the quality of Marans & their egg colour, currently available in US.....(like Bev).

As far as I understand it there are rather a lot of genes which contribute to brown egg colour, some of which, apparently are sex linked.
I have wondered, based on certain observations, whether blending birds from two known dark egg laying lines one might get even darker eggs in the new incororated line. My reasoning being that birds from one dark egg laying line could have some/many of the brown egg genes & another line of dark egg layers have also some/many dark egg genes, but not all of the genes of each line are necessarily the same genes, though there would probably be an overlap. By mixing the lines one might get even even darker eggs, at least initially, as when incorporated the total dark egg genes possessed by the new incorporated line could be greater than the original lines independently. Following that logically, in subsequest generations the egg colour would vary because those allels which did not over lap would be heterozygous in the F1s & a proportion of the F2s would likely have fewer darker egg genes; some would have the very dark eggs & there would be certain variety of intermediate egg colours.
While starting the blue/silver wheatens the F1 pullets laid exceedingly dark eggs, darker than was usual in the line of either parents. . They seem to be segregating out a bit now the idea being to try to get the dark colour consistent. Some pullets which have a lighter egg colour than either of the initial lines are discarded.....the trouble is the males

IMHO it might be a good idea to make sure that any line one was thinking of introducing into ones existing line, laid consistently dark eggs, rather than just some pullets laying dark eggs. There are a lot of messed up birds out there. By messed up birds I do not refer to any bird carrying wheaten. Wheaten is from proper French marans

therefore won't have damaged type or egg colour.

Sorry for the long rambling post.​

 

[cottagegarden]

Thank you Krys. Your information is much appreciated as so many of us have young birds or will just be getting them this year and you have Marans experience..and vast genetic knowledge.
My purpose in starting the otherbloodlines thread was to help people with things they were working thru and make a point that you cant take your F1 pullet eggs and sell them and have anyone end up with better birds. But, since there is some focus on financial gain over line improvement you just have to be happy that lots of people are very passionate about preserving and improving the breed.
Dont ever apologize for anything,thats all very interesting stuff. (O:

 

[Krys109uk]

But, since there is some focus on financial gain over line improvement you just have to be happy that lots of people are very passionate about preserving and improving the breed.

Thanks for being kind.
Yes.....I agree it is lucky for the breed that there are some dedicated breeders out there.
It is such a shame that those less well intentioned people cannot necessarily be discerned by adverts on ebay....I presume this is where many eggs come from?

As for my poor silver blue wheatens.....The colour could be stabilised in a year or two but it could be years before I get the egg colour stabilised.....