Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[Wynette]

OK I had posted on the SOP thread but no answers; I think everyone is over here any way. The nice thing about that thread tho is having the standard on the first page.

"BACK: Wide at the shoulders, long, flat, slightly tilted to the rear. Slightly more inclined than that of the female."

I am still learning so this might be dumb question, but just trying to get the right picture in my head. From this I'm thinking that in a relaxed stance the back is basically flat, but the shoulders are slightly lower than the area right in front of the tail, so the back runs up hill towards the tail. I see a lot of birds of different breeds where the back runs uphill towards the neck and shoulders and that would be wrong for the Marans.

Does anyone have some pictures that show this? Also how about pictures from above? I'm thinking as a dual purpose bird the Marans should be as wide at the tail end as it is at the shoulders? Even pictures of what they SHOULDN"T look like would be helpful

Does this help? Back is actually a higher level than the point of where the tail connect. You've got the right idea, just flip-flop what you were thinking.

 

[maryhysong]

Does this help? Back is actually a higher level than the point of where the tail connect. You've got the right idea, just flip-flop what you were thinking.

Thank you, that does help, So basically the back runs down hill from shoulder to tail, but only very slightly. While I'm a good reader and can follow written directions easily, trying to translate the SOP into live chicken flesh is not that easy!

 

[xlboergoats]

These are really nice diagrams. This is the same set of diagrams that we used when we started selecting birds for our breeding flocks. I think that if we all keep these diagrams in the back of our minds, we could work to improve the "type" of most of the varieties of Marans. The cull/keep process is never ending around here.

We work hard to produce birds with everything rolled into one neat package. We are pleased with our birds, but we still have not produced a perfect Marans. I know the Standard of Perfection, and still have not seen a perfect animal. I think that sometimes, we get too hung up on color. "Type" carries more points on the show bench than color. We breed for strengths and against weaknesses. We are not sold on any one "line" of Marans. We use the best that we have with the best that we have regardless to where it came from and hope to produce better.

I have been out in the pens selecting the birds that we will show in Ft Worth this weekend. We are lucky enough that we have enough Marans of each variety that we can select the ones that we will show at different shows. When standing in a pen full of birds, "type" is the first thing that I see. After pulling a set of birds based on "type", I go through them and make my final selection based on color. Sometimes, the bird with the best color is not the one with the best "type".


JMO,
Ernie Haire
Arp, Texas
www.Marans2XL.com

 

[maryhysong]

I have been out in the pens selecting the birds that we will show in Ft Worth this weekend. We are lucky enough that we have enough Marans of each variety that we can select the ones that we will show at different shows. When standing in a pen full of birds, "type" is the first thing that I see. After pulling a set of birds based on "type", I go through them and make my final selection based on color. Sometimes, the bird with the best color is not the one with the best "type".

All of mine are still babies; the oldest were hatched in Nov, the rest different hatch dates in Dec. so they all still have a lot of growing up to do. But I am trying to train my eye to see the right things and the wrong ones. To learn what I should automatically cull and what might be breedable with the right mate. I have chicks from 3 different folks now (didn't really plan it that way, just how things worked out). I know they are going to change a lot as they grow, but it looks like they are going to run the gamet, from nearly clean legs to heavy feathering, from way too black (even a black beak and comb on a one month old) to way too much color, what looks like maybe a girl sprinkled with copper speckles to a flaming orange breasted boy.

So my idea is, as they grow up, to look at the biggest, best type bodies. Then look for DQs like bad combs. Then look at colors as well as egg color. You can be sure in a few months I will be posting a lot of photos and asking for help!

 

[xlboergoats]

All of mine are still babies; the oldest were hatched in Nov, the rest different hatch dates in Dec. so they all still have a lot of growing up to do. But I am trying to train my eye to see the right things and the wrong ones. To learn what I should automatically cull and what might be breedable with the right mate. I have chicks from 3 different folks now (didn't really plan it that way, just how things worked out). I know they are going to change a lot as they grow, but it looks like they are going to run the gamet, from nearly clean legs to heavy feathering, from way too black (even a black beak and comb on a one month old) to way too much color, what looks like maybe a girl sprinkled with copper speckles to a flaming orange breasted boy.

So my idea is, as they grow up, to look at the biggest, best type bodies. Then look for DQs like bad combs. Then look at colors as well as egg color. You can be sure in a few months I will be posting a lot of photos and asking for help!

Give them time, give them time, don't throw anything out just yet. Color and body can change. A side sprigs on a comb will always be side sprig on a comb. Post pictures when they get a little more mature. Then everyone can look at them and try to help you with opinions. After that, you have the freedom to make your own decisions.

Regards,
Ernie Haire
Arp, Texas
www.Marans2XL.com

 

[Wynette]

These are really nice diagrams. This is the same set of diagrams that we used when we started selecting birds for our breeding flocks. I think that if we all keep these diagrams in the back of our minds, we could work to improve the "type" of most of the varieties of Marans. The cull/keep process is never ending around here.

We work hard to produce birds with everything rolled into one neat package. We are pleased with our birds, but we still have not produced a perfect Marans. I know the Standard of Perfection, and still have not seen a perfect animal. I think that sometimes, we get too hung up on color. "Type" carries more points on the show bench than color. We breed for strengths and against weaknesses. We are not sold on any one "line" of Marans. We use the best that we have with the best that we have regardless to where it came from and hope to produce better.

I have been out in the pens selecting the birds that we will show in Ft Worth this weekend. We are lucky enough that we have enough Marans of each variety that we can select the ones that we will show at different shows. When standing in a pen full of birds, "type" is the first thing that I see. After pulling a set of birds based on "type", I go through them and make my final selection based on color. Sometimes, the bird with the best color is not the one with the best "type".


JMO,
Ernie Haire
Arp, Texas
www.Marans2XL.com

Those diagrams are posted out in my barn & I look at them often. For me, I am not good at picking out what I want to breed from when they're running around in the pen. I can get a good idea, but for me, I need to separate them slowly - I have a double cage (the type used at the shows) and I put one bird in each side. This way, they cannot go far, and I can compare them side by side. I pick the best, make notes on them both (eye color, shank color, correct or incorrect shank feathering, topline, underline, tailset, wing carriage, etc.), leave the better one in, and put the other back out - then, I grab up the next one, and compare that next one to the better of the last 2. So, I'm comparing the best one all the time. I leg band them at this time. I then rank them. This is how I choose for single mating if that's my plan.

When all are laying well, I begin putting the pullets in breeder cages (small cages up on stilts with a nest box and roost) and collect at least 3 eggs, and add the notes of egg color to that particular bird.

Works for me, you just need to find the system that works best for you!

All of mine are still babies; the oldest were hatched in Nov, the rest different hatch dates in Dec. so they all still have a lot of growing up to do. But I am trying to train my eye to see the right things and the wrong ones. To learn what I should automatically cull and what might be breedable with the right mate. I have chicks from 3 different folks now (didn't really plan it that way, just how things worked out). I know they are going to change a lot as they grow, but it looks like they are going to run the gamet, from nearly clean legs to heavy feathering, from way too black (even a black beak and comb on a one month old) to way too much color, what looks like maybe a girl sprinkled with copper speckles to a flaming orange breasted boy.

So my idea is, as they grow up, to look at the biggest, best type bodies. Then look for DQs like bad combs. Then look at colors as well as egg color. You can be sure in a few months I will be posting a lot of photos and asking for help!

Familiarize yourself with the DQ issues (I constantly forget some that are DQ or faults - shank feathering is one that I ALWAYS have to double check on), send those birds on immediately. Don't waste your feed on them!

Have you heard the saying, "Build the barn first, then paint it."? That's just what you say in your last paragraph: learn type - type, type, type! As Ernie states above, TYPE over color will make for a win in the show pen. THen, once you have your type set, other things come into play, as you mentioned. Of course egg color MUST be at leas a 4 on the scale; many of us won't even set an egg unless it's at least a 6.

Give them time, give them time, don't throw anything out just yet. Color and body can change. A side sprigs on a comb will always be side sprig on a comb. Post pictures when they get a little more mature. Then everyone can look at them and try to help you with opinions. After that, you have the freedom to make your own decisions.

Regards,
Ernie Haire
Arp, Texas
www.Marans2XL.com

Agree here, except for DQ issues.

 

[maryhysong]

Those diagrams are posted out in my barn & I look at them often. For me, I am not good at picking out what I want to breed from when they're running around in the pen. I can get a good idea, but for me, I need to separate them slowly - I have a double cage (the type used at the shows) and I put one bird in each side. This way, they cannot go far, and I can compare them side by side. I pick the best, make notes on them both (eye color, shank color, correct or incorrect shank feathering, topline, underline, tailset, wing carriage, etc.), leave the better one in, and put the other back out - then, I grab up the next one, and compare that next one to the better of the last 2. So, I'm comparing the best one all the time. I leg band them at this time. I then rank them. This is how I choose for single mating if that's my plan.

When all are laying well, I begin putting the pullets in breeder cages (small cages up on stilts with a nest box and roost) and collect at least 3 eggs, and add the notes of egg color to that particular bird.

Works for me, you just need to find the system that works best for you!

Familiarize yourself with the DQ issues (I constantly forget some that are DQ or faults - shank feathering is one that I ALWAYS have to double check on), send those birds on immediately. Don't waste your feed on them!

Have you heard the saying, "Build the barn first, then paint it."? That's just what you say in your last paragraph: learn type - type, type, type! As Ernie states above, TYPE over color will make for a win in the show pen. THen, once you have your type set, other things come into play, as you mentioned. Of course egg color MUST be at leas a 4 on the scale; many of us won't even set an egg unless it's at least a 6.

Agree here, except for DQ issues.

Thank you for sharing how you pick out your breeders. That is pretty much how I used to pick out which rabbits I would keep as breeders when I was getting ready to process fryers; went through each litter pretty much like that a week or so ahead of time, writing down their tat #s so I wouldn't make a mistake on butchering day. Of course rabbits don't change as much between 8 weeks and 6 months as chickens do

Generally if they have the right type and the right color at 8 weeks they will have it when they are older too.

Yes I've read you and others many times say build the barn first, that is why I figured I better start learning what I should be looking for. I think I will print out those diagrams and put them out in the coop along with a list of the DQs.

And I won't totally dump anybody until they are big enough to eat

I do not plan to sell the real culls, those with DQs or terrible type at all. They will go to freezer camp.

Sitting out with them this afternoon when I got home from work (I come home and talk to the chickens to destress) well, out of 20 babies I counted *at least* 13 boys..... I am hoping that's all there are!

 

[maryhysong]

I do have another question. Split wing; I'm understanding that this is where when the bird folds it's wing up, the feathers on the leading edge (primaries?) are not held so that they stay in the leading edge position but fold up underneath the rest of the wing. (hope that's clear)

For instance I have a bird that has white on it's first couple of feathers. With it's wing folded I see the white way up under the rest of the wing, barely peeking out, nearly at the birds back. If that isn't clear I'll try and get some pics tomorrow.

My question is, is this a genetic fault or could it be an incubation problem. This is one that hatched from shipped eggs. This one was stuck in the shell and I had to help it a bit. When it's feathers began growing in the feathers themselves were curved instead of straight.

Also I'm thinking this issue is a DQ? or is it just a bad fault?

 

[xlboergoats]

I do have another question. Split wing; I'm understanding that this is where when the bird folds it's wing up, the feathers on the leading edge (primaries?) are not held so that they stay in the leading edge position but fold up underneath the rest of the wing. (hope that's clear)

For instance I have a bird that has white on it's first couple of feathers. With it's wing folded I see the white way up under the rest of the wing, barely peeking out, nearly at the birds back. If that isn't clear I'll try and get some pics tomorrow.

My question is, is this a genetic fault or could it be an incubation problem. This is one that hatched from shipped eggs. This one was stuck in the shell and I had to help it a bit. When it's feathers began growing in the feathers themselves were curved instead of straight.

Also I'm thinking this issue is a DQ? or is it just a bad fault?

The only time that we have seen this is at shows. It has always been a DQ. I have never seen it in our Breed Standard. I can only assume that it is a DQ regardless to what breed it is.

Ernie Haire
Arp, Texas
www.Marans2XL.com

 

[Zanna]

The only time that we have seen this is at shows. It has always been a DQ. I have never seen it in our Breed Standard. I can only assume that it is a DQ regardless to what breed it is.

Ernie Haire
Arp, Texas
www.Marans2XL.com

X2 In the SOP it is listed under General Disqualifications for all breeds.