Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[maryhysong]

Here are the last two BCM boys I have, up for critique; give me the good bad and ugly. What have I missed on these guys? . I was prepared to NOT discount on their size because they had a near death experience at the hands of the PO, only 5 survivors out of 20 chicks shipped. (But keep reading, you will be surprised like I was) Hatched around Dec 4 so about 3 weeks younger than 49 & 50. Both of these boys are more aloof than the other three, especially TX2 making it really hard to get good pics; he spends most of his time under the mobile coop in the shade. These boys have NO white feathers now; any white you see in the pics is flash/sun reflections.

First up is TX2. Today he weighs 5.89 pounds.








(the white speck on his chest in the following photo is food)


What looks like shafting in the following pic is not. The feather shafts are dark, but they reflect more light from the flash/sun than the feather itself.




TX2, What I like: wide through the tail and between the legs. Solid copper hackles; the slight variation you see in some pics I think is from the flash going off in the deep shade. In the last pic his head and neck are in full sun and you can see the deep red color is pretty solid. Nice beetle green sheen on his black, fully feathered shanks and outside toes. No middle toe feathers. No white feathers. I think his tail is OK, his back might be a bit too sloped, hard to tell as he doesn't come out in the open that much and when he does, he's on guard and standing pretty tall most of the time. Eye color is good.

Problems; no copper on the back, just the neck. Big comb stands out in space at the back. I think his butt fluff almost looks too fluffy/loose, but could just be molting or something. It does look a little light and in some lights has a slight brown tinge. ear is mostly black with just a little bit of copper. What have I missed?

This is TX1. Today he really surprised me; he weighs 6.55 pounds.




















TX1 hatched with NO white in tail or wing feathers and has stayed that way. Had a partly white feather on one foot, which is molting out; waiting to see if it comes back black or white.

TX1 What I like; his color as far as I can tell is about perfect. The shading in the hackles seems to be a trick of the flash reflection. And again, what looks like shafting isn't; it's just that the feather shafts are hard and shiney and reflect light more than the feather barbs. His eye is still changing so still a bit dark at the bottom, but hoping it goes to clear bay. Ear has more copper than TX2, but some black. Butt fluff is dark, no brown tinge. Shanks are feathered right down the outside toe, tho molting out at the moment. His weight; 49 & 50 are about 3 weeks older; two weeks ago Mr 50 weighed 6.5 pounds so he has caught up to him.

He is taller than the others boys and his neck seems longer; I know his neck and legs are a lot longer than Mr 50

Problems; Again a funky comb, his ears need more copper, he is more narrow between the legs and through the butt than TX2 or Mr 50. He has middle toe feather stubs, a patch of them on each foot. I think he needs a meatier breast but maybe that will come with age. (His breast bone was really notable when I picked him up) It's not showing up in the pics here but sometimes it looks like there is a line in his feathers right along the breastbone in front, like the feathers sink in. I'm hoping his chest will fill out more as he gets older. What have I missed????

 

[Wynette]

Here are the last two BCM boys I have, up for critique; give me the good bad and ugly. What have I missed on these guys? . I was prepared to NOT discount on their size because they had a near death experience at the hands of the PO, only 5 survivors out of 20 chicks shipped. (But keep reading, you will be surprised like I was) Hatched around Dec 4 so about 3 weeks younger than 49 & 50. Both of these boys are more aloof than the other three, especially TX2 making it really hard to get good pics; he spends most of his time under the mobile coop in the shade. These boys have NO white feathers now; any white you see in the pics is flash/sun reflections.

First up is TX2. Today he weighs 5.89 pounds.








(the white speck on his chest in the following photo is food)


What looks like shafting in the following pic is not. The feather shafts are dark, but they reflect more light from the flash/sun than the feather itself.




TX2, What I like: wide through the tail and between the legs. Solid copper hackles; the slight variation you see in some pics I think is from the flash going off in the deep shade. In the last pic his head and neck are in full sun and you can see the deep red color is pretty solid. Nice beetle green sheen on his black, fully feathered shanks and outside toes. No middle toe feathers. No white feathers. I think his tail is OK, his back might be a bit too sloped, hard to tell as he doesn't come out in the open that much and when he does, he's on guard and standing pretty tall most of the time. Eye color is good.

Problems; no copper on the back, just the neck. Big comb stands out in space at the back. I think his butt fluff almost looks too fluffy/loose, but could just be molting or something. It does look a little light and in some lights has a slight brown tinge. ear is mostly black with just a little bit of copper. What have I missed?

This is TX1. Today he really surprised me; he weighs 6.55 pounds.




















TX1 hatched with NO white in tail or wing feathers and has stayed that way. Had a partly white feather on one foot, which is molting out; waiting to see if it comes back black or white.

TX1 What I like; his color as far as I can tell is about perfect. The shading in the hackles seems to be a trick of the flash reflection. And again, what looks like shafting isn't; it's just that the feather shafts are hard and shiney and reflect light more than the feather barbs. His eye is still changing so still a bit dark at the bottom, but hoping it goes to clear bay. Ear has more copper than TX2, but some black. Butt fluff is dark, no brown tinge. Shanks are feathered right down the outside toe, tho molting out at the moment. His weight; 49 & 50 are about 3 weeks older; two weeks ago Mr 50 weighed 6.5 pounds so he has caught up to him.

He is taller than the others boys and his neck seems longer; I know his neck and legs are a lot longer than Mr 50

Problems; Again a funky comb, his ears need more copper, he is more narrow between the legs and through the butt than TX2 or Mr 50. He has middle toe feather stubs, a patch of them on each foot. I think he needs a meatier breast but maybe that will come with age. (His breast bone was really notable when I picked him up) It's not showing up in the pics here but sometimes it looks like there is a line in his feathers right along the breastbone in front, like the feathers sink in. I'm hoping his chest will fill out more as he gets older. What have I missed????

I deleted the pics to shorten the post. Hmmm...to be honest, there are things about both of these males that I don't like, and some things I do, but I still believe 49 to be the best choice in what you have. TX2 is VERY overmelanised. I believe most of his female offspring will be solid black. He's awfully slight in build. He DOES have perfect shank feathering - at least in my opinion. He also lacks balance, front to back. Shanks are too dark. Tail is a bit too high of an angle, but that's a really tough one to judge via pictures. To me, he doens't have enough going for him to use.

TX1 has excellent color balance. Again, shanks are too dark. Eye is actually a bit dark, but not enough to concern me. He appears to have a nice topline, although there isn't a pic of him from the side standing in a natural position, so it's tough to tell. This one also lacks balance. goodness, he has some comb, doesn't he?

How many males are you keeping? Can you show us the females you have to work with? It's possibel we can help you match up a female that would offset some of the things in the males that you will need to work on if you keep them.

All of this is my personal opinion, and I am no expert!

 

[maryhysong]

I deleted the pics to shorten the post. Hmmm...to be honest, there are things about both of these males that I don't like, and some things I do, but I still believe 49 to be the best choice in what you have. TX2 is VERY overmelanised. I believe most of his female offspring will be solid black. He's awfully slight in build. He DOES have perfect shank feathering - at least in my opinion. He also lacks balance, front to back. Shanks are too dark. Tail is a bit too high of an angle, but that's a really tough one to judge via pictures. To me, he doens't have enough going for him to use.

TX1 has excellent color balance. Again, shanks are too dark. Eye is actually a bit dark, but not enough to concern me. He appears to have a nice topline, although there isn't a pic of him from the side standing in a natural position, so it's tough to tell. This one also lacks balance. goodness, he has some comb, doesn't he?

How many males are you keeping? Can you show us the females you have to work with? It's possibel we can help you match up a female that would offset some of the things in the males that you will need to work on if you keep them.

All of this is my personal opinion, and I am no expert!

I appreciate your comments! I am still learning; that's why I"ve been posting these guys. Seriously I think at the moment I will only cull that HC boy, related to the flaming orange boys and keep the other four around for awhile longer.

I have been so focused on the boys because I had so many of them and some of the others had so many serious faults it wasn't funny. I have about 8 girls, some related to the TX boys and some related to the HC boys; I don't have any related to 49 & 50. I need to order leg bands so I can tag the girls individually and then weigh and photograph them for comments; But I can tell you already that most are nearly pure black or mossy and several have clean shanks.I'm not sure that they are all laying yet either. And most look on the small side with a couple having radicle upright tails.

 

[lonnyandrinda]

maryhysong just wanted to say thanks so much for being brave enough to post all these pictures of your birds and critiquing them. It is really helping me to sharpen my eye for my own flock. You are going to have a really great start with BCMs once you get down to final selection!

 

[maryhysong]

maryhysong just wanted to say thanks so much for being brave enough to post all these pictures of your birds and critiquing them. It is really helping me to sharpen my eye for my own flock. You are going to have a really great start with BCMs once you get down to final selection!

you're welcome. I have no qualms about showing them here, even the really ugly boys I posted a couple months back. While I have bred other animals to a standard this is my first time with chickens and I realize I have a lot to learn and to train my eye to also. That is why I say what I think about each one and ask questions. I truely appreciate Wynette, Don, Marquisella, Ernie and all the others here that are helping me learn what a great BCM should look like.

 

[Wynette]

Listen, NO ONE has a perfect bird, and I'm with lonnyandrinda - kudos for posting pics of your males. It's a great learning tool for all of us!

Another thing, it's fantastic that you're able to keep so many for as long as you have - and longer. MANY of the issues we see (such as lack of balance, fullness of breast, even angle of tail) change so much as they age. It is uber helpful to be able to watch them as they mature, see the differences and similarities.

I had a conversation just this morning with another Marans breeder, and he was askign me why someone would worry about keeping a bird with clean shanks, since it's so easy to put feathers onto a shank. I told him, it really depends on what you are looking for in your flock, what things are the most important to you. There are things that are "deal breakers" for us all. Once you have the deal breakers taken care of, you move onto other things. I think the trick in being successful is to pick the things you're working on in the order that makes sense genetically, while holding the SOP in your other hand. For example, it wouldn't make sense to be working on lengthening the topline and lightening the eyes if you have a bird with a DQ or major fault. Take care of that stuff first. I see so many people going on & on about combs. Yes, a honkin' huge one or one that has twice as many points as it should have is distracting and makes for not a very pretty picture. BUT...in the grand scheme of things, if it's not flopped, doens't have a thumbpring or a large twist...learn to overlook it. At least until you have those major faults under control. Know what I mean?

 

[maryhysong]

Listen, NO ONE has a perfect bird, and I'm with lonnyandrinda - kudos for posting pics of your males. It's a great learning tool for all of us!

Another thing, it's fantastic that you're able to keep so many for as long as you have - and longer. MANY of the issues we see (such as lack of balance, fullness of breast, even angle of tail) change so much as they age. It is uber helpful to be able to watch them as they mature, see the differences and similarities.

I had a conversation just this morning with another Marans breeder, and he was askign me why someone would worry about keeping a bird with clean shanks, since it's so easy to put feathers onto a shank. I told him, it really depends on what you are looking for in your flock, what things are the most important to you. There are things that are "deal breakers" for us all. Once you have the deal breakers taken care of, you move onto other things. I think the trick in being successful is to pick the things you're working on in the order that makes sense genetically, while holding the SOP in your other hand. For example, it wouldn't make sense to be working on lengthening the topline and lightening the eyes if you have a bird with a DQ or major fault. Take care of that stuff first. I see so many people going on & on about combs. Yes, a honkin' huge one or one that has twice as many points as it should have is distracting and makes for not a very pretty picture. BUT...in the grand scheme of things, if it's not flopped, doens't have a thumbpring or a large twist...learn to overlook it. At least until you have those major faults under control. Know what I mean?

Oh yes I know what you mean ;-). I want to make sure my birds are wide and hefty, with coloring at least somewhere near the SOP and no DQs, preferably no major faults, first. Then can work on finesse, smaller finer combs, better coloring. I just figure if I don't start with the bigger birds it would be hard to breed size in without bringing in more outside blood. At this time I feel I have plenty of genetic diversity here, in fact probably too much. I have no plans to bring in any more BCM for some time and then only if I have a major issue that needs fixing and that is the only way to do it.

I would never cull a bird on comb looks alone, unless it had sprigs or another DQ. Not worth that many points at a show, I think proper body shape and size should be my first major emphasis, then coloring and correct leg feathering and coloring, then things like combs.

 

[salt and pepper]

Here are some more pics of my two pullets, they hate me, so it's really hard to get a good pic. lol
This one I am really excited about, she does have one or two white feathers, but so did my rooster, and they molted out. Her tail is a 25* to 35* degree angle, which will go fine with my rooster's. she has beautiful copper color, and her shanks are feathered nicely, any critique?


This one, I'm not sure what to think about, here shanks aren't as nice, but they're still coming in, and her copper is a little bit darker, I believe she also has one or two white feathers.

 

[ashandvine]

Well this shows you how little I know. I liked TX1 the best because so many birds, specifically the cockerels, that I have seen have way way too much and too light color or 'haloe' or whatever the term of the week is. I like that he is wide and dark and he has a nice comb-- I know, small points when it comes to a show but if you have to look at him and its that big then make it pretty imo. lol I like his 'underline' and that his hackle is solid.

Could we breed for smaller combs, omg those are so ugly! lol That really needs to be in my by line or something.

 

[maryhysong]

Well this shows you how little I know. I liked TX1 the best because so many birds, specifically the cockerels, that I have seen have way way too much and too light color or 'haloe' or whatever the term of the week is. I like that he is wide and dark and he has a nice comb-- I know, small points when it comes to a show but if you have to look at him and its that big then make it pretty imo. lol I like his 'underline' and that his hackle is solid.

Could we breed for smaller combs, omg those are so ugly! lol That really needs to be in my by line or something.

Oh I agree that of the 5 boys TX1 has the most nearly perfect coloring. And in weight he has caught up to boys nearly a month older than he is. But he is not as wide through the tail and between the legs as his hatchmate TX2. Also the middle toe feathering bothers me, but not as much as the width of body. Of course he will grow out some more and might put on a better chest over the next few months. (it's pretty bony at the moment). I'm actually ignoring combs for the time being; but like comments on them to help train my eye.