Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[upthecreek]

Quote:
The problem with the wheaten showing up in BC Marans according to the French site was caused by the Wheaten males being used in the BC breeding pens as the farmers did not know the difference. The wheaten blood is also why we see the BC with the white Shanks and feet, the white wing and tail feathers and also the white undercolor in the BC. The BC males that have the halo going on with the Hackle feathers is a sign there is wheaten blood going on.

The white undercolor and the white wing and tail feathers can be bred out by rigid culling. All of these wheaten influence problems go hand to hand. I proved two year ago that it can be bred out of the BC though.


Thank You Snowbird

I have a theory on the breeding of the Marans in France that i've seen proven in other locations on other breeds . I won't go into it but it appears that when the French site was confronted with this question "why is the wheaton patterns/colors showing up out of BC ?" they simply did not know the answer sooo (what's the natural thing for humans to do) blame it on the peasant .
Still not knowing the truth ,

Trouble lies with the thinking that a breed or variety we know now is or was pure as the the white driven snow .

Shannon

 

[jeremyhodges]

Here are some of another breeding. Unrelated Cock and Pullet. Pullet daughter of the hen in the above post. Two of their cockeral offspring. I hope these pictures are helpfull..........

How old is the pullet in this photo? I have a Black Copper Maran female which I purchased from Meyer Hatchery. Because she came from a hatchery I am not expecting her to necessarily have all of the characteristics of the BCMs, but I have been curious about the fact that so far she has not developed any copper in her feathers whatsoever. This picture was encouraging to see that pullets don't always have that color. She also doesn't have much in the way of a comb or waddles yet. She's 13 weeks old today. Thanks for any opinions you can offer!

 

[Zanna]

How old is the pullet in this photo? I have a Black Copper Maran female which I purchased from Meyer Hatchery. Because she came from a hatchery I am not expecting her to necessarily have all of the characteristics of the BCMs, but I have been curious about the fact that so far she has not developed any copper in her feathers whatsoever. This picture was encouraging to see that pullets don't always have that color. She also doesn't have much in the way of a comb or waddles yet. She's 13 weeks old today. Thanks for any opinions you can offer!

The photo was from last year, I think she was about 8 mos. old at the time. None of my 4 breeder hen/pullets this year have copper other than a stray feather or two and at least 50% of their pullet offspring have copper. With your little girl at only 13 weeks old she may still develop some copper. I have heard that some even develop the copper as late as point of lay but I have not had that experience.

 

[dvoice]

My BCM chicks. Including the white one with the ressesive gene. 48 out of 70. On day 24 and I think I still might get another 1 or2. Most hatched day 20-21

 

[Ihilani Coffee]

Thank You Snowbird

I have a theory on the breeding of the Marans in France that i've seen proven in other locations on other breeds . I won't go into it but it appears that when the French site was confronted with this question "why is the wheaton patterns/colors showing up out of BC ?" they simply did not know the answer sooo (what's the natural thing for humans to do) blame it on the peasant .
Still not knowing the truth ,

Trouble lies with the thinking that a breed or variety we know now is or was pure as the the white driven snow .

Shannon

These last two pages of posts have been quite an eye-opener for me. I'm not sure I would have chosen this "breed" had I known all this information a couple of months ago. I was naive and thought I was choosing a pure breed that could be used for many purposes: dark eggs, decent dressing percentage on extra cockerels, production birds for people who just want dark eggs, etc. I understand that all breeds/varieties are developed by crossing and adding in characteristics from different sources and then breeding for standardization...I just didn't realize that the BCM were this "young" in the process or had such recent outcross influences. I thank you all for your honest assessment of BCM.

I am scheduled to set my first eggs (mostly barnyard mutts to test the incubator) this week. I have a few BBS eggs to toss in there also. My breeder BCM cockerel has a halo and distinctly lighter hackle color than what is on his shoulder/back. From what I am reading, it doesn't really matter if I paid a huge amount to buy a SQ cockerel or not...BCM and BBS will simply not breed true? I guess I will just be breeding layer quality birds and not be so terribly concerned about SOP...I never intended to show but don't want to do the breed harm either. So if I cull for obvious DQs, don't sell cockerels for breeders and tell anyone who buys hatching eggs, chicks, or POL pullets that they are production quality, would anyone agree that I am fulfulling my ethical responsibility?

 

[upthecreek]

Quote:

To say that Marans do not breed true is an over assumption ..... they will and are being done so every day . But to say the "will never breed true" is a novice idea .
One not willing to work at something worthwhile will soon fall to the wayside .
Taking out of context what has been previously said is not helpful at anytime .
Most all Marans Breeders realize that there is no such thing as Perfection , that there is no such thing as a Perfect All Purpose Chicken and hope that others can grasp this idea also without bashing the breed .
It's a "given" that everyone has the right to do as they so please with their birds (lawfully) .
I hope you the Very Best in your endeavors with poultry and I said none of the above to scold you but as an attempt to edify .

Friends in the Hobby ,
James Shannon Nelson

 

[BeardedLadyFarm]

Breed for what interests you. If you believe you bought good stock then there is no harm in calling them pure. If you want to show then select for show traits over the generations if that is what is important to you.

I breed for egg color first and foremost. Then for big meaty roosters. Then for pasture survival skills. Showing has no interest to me. I would still consider my birds pure and to me and others like me they are quite desirable. I have combined multiple lines and get some variation. I welcome that. I cull any obvious duds and move on with the rest.

 

[Ihilani Coffee]

To say that Marans do not breed true is an over assumption ..... they will and are being done so every day . But to say the "will never breed true" is a novice idea .
One not willing to work at something worthwhile will soon fall to the wayside .
Taking out of context what has been previously said is not helpful at anytime .
Most all Marans Breeders realize that there is no such thing as Perfection , that there is no such thing as a Perfect All Purpose Chicken and hope that others can grasp this idea also without bashing the breed .
It's a "given" that everyone has the right to do as they so please with their birds (lawfully) .
I hope you the Very Best in your endeavors with poultry and I said none of the above to scold you but as an attempt to edify .

Friends in the Hobby ,
James Shannon Nelson

James~
Bashing novices is no way to promote your breed either. If you "quote" someone, please do so as a direct quote of what was in a post. I did not use the word *never* but rather was asking a question, "BCM and BBS will simply not breed true?" I have made it plain that I am very new to breeding chickens. I have come to this forum to learn.

 

[Ihilani Coffee]

Breed for what interests you. If you believe you bought good stock then there is no harm in calling them pure. If you want to show then select for show traits over the generations if that is what is important to you.

I breed for egg color first and foremost. Then for big meaty roosters. Then for pasture survival skills. Showing has no interest to me. I would still consider my birds pure and to me and others like me they are quite desirable. I have combined multiple lines and get some variation. I welcome that. I cull any obvious duds and move on with the rest.

Thank you, helpful post. I understand I have the right to do whatever I please with my livestock. I have bred mammal classes of livestock for over 30 years and understand that there will always be folks who think their way is the only way and have a large need to be 'right.' I was asking the ethical question for frame of reference from this group.

 

[Wynette]

ihilani - your thoughtful post is appreciated; you bring up good points, to be sure. Remember that this breed was only accepted into the APA in 2011. They are babies, so to speak. For ANY breeders to say "they breed true" is, in my humble opinion, a major overstatement. Again, this is just my opinion. I have been breeding & showing for many years now, and have relationships with folks who are among those who have bred them the longest of anyone in the U.S., and we all are in agreement that it will be many, many years before we really can say that they breed true.

I honestly see almost as much variance in other breeds that were accepted in the 1920s. I don't believe it's wrong to call your flock (and I have not seen them) purebred if you are sure that's what they are. I'm of the camp that if it looks like a Marans, lays like a Marans, BREEDS FAIRLY TRUE, it's a Marans. All breeds are composite breeds; even our beloved Plymouth Rock, which is one of the oldest breeds accepted. To think there won't be variances is just plain silly.

The fact that you are striving for proper type is fantastic - selling hatching eggs, chicks, juveniles, or even adult stock is fine, so long as you are honest. What you state in your post is honest - what more can someone ask? A buyer should do their research and be prepared with questions, and to know what to look for. Many on here (I know Don strongly disagrees with me, and that's fine - everyone is allowed an opinion) think it's purely the SELLER'S responsibility to inform the buyer everything they know about their flocks. My opinion, of course, tell folks where your flock originated, what you are breeding for, what you are working to eliminate, etc. But, the buyer ALSO has a responsibility to do their research and ask appropriate questions. I'll state one more time, this is just my opinion.