Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[snowbird]

Quote:
Wynette, One last question is where are the new people supposed to learn the questions to ask when buying chicks and eggs ? For anyone that doesn't know the Sprig and split wing comes from not culling your fowl and inbreeding. If I hatch out a chick with a sprig when it develops I cull mother and Papa, when I say cull I do not mean sell them to someone else that doesn't know poultry. I am out.

 

[desertmarcy]

Don, this is simply hogwash. You cannot know what a bird may pop up with in each & every chick that is hatched. To say it is "fraud" to sell chicks or hatching eggs that "may" result in a cull is seriously outrageous! EVERY flock produces culls! Even breeds that have been bred and accepted by the APA for many years! Oh my word, please, folks, THINK when your read this stuff. I know you think you are the only breeder with ethcis, but I beg your pardon - there is simply no need for you to attack me as you have. I have never been anything but honest with folks who purchase hatching eggs or stock from me. If my line breeds so many culls, why have I been placing highly at the shows, CONSISTENTLY, why have my customers been placing so well, also? This is the amount of consistency you would expect from a breed that only was accepted TWO years ago into the APA. Just 2 months ago at the MI Fowl Fanciers' show, a young man places RESERVE CONTINENTAL with a bird that was bred from parent stock that I sold him. And I do not sell that many. We're supposed to be helping people, not turning them away from the breed! This negativity does nothing to move the breed forward.

I have never hatched a straw hackled bird from my Black Copper Marans. Mahogany, yes, but not straw.

I haven't either. Not totally straw. Some with the light halo on the bottom of the hackles. And this was my first year to get a mahogany.

 

[Wynette]

Wynette, One last question is where are the new people supposed to learn the questions to ask when buying chicks and eggs ? For anyone that doesn't know the Sprig and split wing comes from not culling your fowl and inbreeding. If I hatch out a chick with a sprig when it develops I cull mother and Papa, when I say cull I do not mean sell them to someone else that doesn't know poultry. I am out.

There are oodles of threads not just on Marans but on other breeds as well - right here on BYC. There are also other forums for breeding (showbidbird is another good one, owned & moderated by a well-known and respected judge, Matt Lhamon), etc. I have seen many times, folks post the question of what to ask. It's been covered many, many times. I work with a lot of folks who are new to breeds, all they need to is say - "what should I be asking when I look for quality birds?" It's not rocket science, and it's not a huge secret. Just ask some folks who have been breeding awhile what to look for.

And, FWIW, the cockerel I mentioned above was F7 of my silver penciled rock line, and the very first to have a side sprig. And I, too, mean "dispatch" when I refer to culling for defects. It's why I breed LF and not bantams; excellent side benefit, you can eat your culls.

I'm heading out to lunch, but let's start a discussion on what to ask if anyone is interested.

 

[desertmarcy]

Don, my issue with what you say is that - AGAIN - this bird was accepted 2 years ago! We know the wheaten was bred into the Black Copper in the beginning and that many breeders are still working to remove that flaw from their flocks. We also know the Penedesenca was used in the beginning...this is where the sprigs and other issues are coming from. Do you feel it is "unethical" to sell hatching eggs if you have seen a sprig in your flock? Come on, sprigs happen. Split wing happens. I'm not saying you shouldn't cull for it - for goodness' sake, I am one of the heaviest cullers out there. But, we have to start somewhere. I hatched a silver penciled rock chick that developed a side sprig last year that I culled - does that mean I shouldn't be selling hatching eggs?

I don't understand your last paragraph - maybe I am naive but I don't see dishonesty by breeders; I see folks CALLING themselves breeders that shouldn't be. Folks that are not educated and have no experience with breeding, selling on Craigslist and eBay. Again, maybe I've naive but I just don't know that there are all that many folks out there trying to take advantage of people. Are there? I guess that's where someone who is looking for stock needs to remember to ASK QUESTIONS. Know what the "right" and "wrong" answer ought to be. There is ALWAYS a place for honesty, and opinions. Just because you may disagree with me, it sure doesn't mean that you are right, nor does it mean I am right. It means we have differing opinions, period.

You bet, there are a lot of them. What Bob Blosl called chicken propagators. I've heard of people out here that don't know very much about the breed selling chicks for more than what I sell mine for, and lesser quality. Are they taking advantage? Probably. I sure know there are some dishonest people in the chicken world trying to make a buck. Like the people in Arizona who sold a nice couple some Cuckoo Marans chicks as Black Copper. The couple were newbies and trusting. I found out about it after they saw my ad, and contacted me. They were questioning the chicks, so I said, bring them over, I'll look. Sure enough, white spots on the tops of their heads. They had put a couple of those in the box mixed in with Black Coppers. The couple was not given a choice of picking out the birds, they were boxed up when they got there. Crazy and sad that there are people like that.

 

[upthecreek]

I have noticed if you ask to many questions of most seller/breeders they will usually drop you or begin to talk vaguely about their birds (not answering completely or just over looking a question) .

I do not sell birds voluntarily .... but if someone insists 'i point out all the negative points' (discouraging the showing of my birds) .

I breed for the darker egg (for Without the Dark Egg Color - We Do Not Have the Marans) .
Once the egg color (hence the Marans)comes consistently i look for body balance first(not that i have not noticed this before hand) because that's the first thing a judge looks for (of course he does a quick check/glance of matching bird to pattern then directly to body balance) .
I have won in other breeds with the incorrect color in certain places on birds because their was no other birds with body balance or were poorly prepared/poorly conditioned for show .
With body balance and dark egg one can begin the work on the particulars as they go along .

Again there is no such thing as perfection , for what's in a bird will come out - there is no way around it . When line breeding or inbreeding you see this most .
I stay away from people who are selling unrelated birds (lol) cause this would be an automatic outcross if the seller is correct about them being unrelated . An out cross has it's place but as most know causes a multitude of problems .
All breeds have a collection of birds that contribute to their makeup , the Marans is no different .

 

[Ihilani Coffee]

Don, my issue with what you say is that - AGAIN - this bird was accepted 2 years ago! We know the wheaten was bred into the Black Copper in the beginning and that many breeders are still working to remove that flaw from their flocks. We also know the Penedesenca was used in the beginning...this is where the sprigs and other issues are coming from. Do you feel it is "unethical" to sell hatching eggs if you have seen a sprig in your flock? Come on, sprigs happen. Split wing happens. I'm not saying you shouldn't cull for it - for goodness' sake, I am one of the heaviest cullers out there. But, we have to start somewhere. I hatched a silver penciled rock chick that developed a side sprig last year that I culled - does that mean I shouldn't be selling hatching eggs?

I don't understand your last paragraph - maybe I am naive but I don't see dishonesty by breeders; I see folks CALLING themselves breeders that shouldn't be. Folks that are not educated and have no experience with breeding, selling on Craigslist and eBay. Again, maybe I've naive but I just don't know that there are all that many folks out there trying to take advantage of people. Are there? I guess that's where someone who is looking for stock needs to remember to ASK QUESTIONS. Know what the "right" and "wrong" answer ought to be. There is ALWAYS a place for honesty, and opinions. Just because you may disagree with me, it sure doesn't mean that you are right, nor does it mean I am right. It means we have differing opinions, period.

Semantics perhaps, but this is my experience. In the other classes of livestock I have had over the decades, people seem to be confused about the definition of "breeder." There are plenty of producers, raisers, etc. out there who think they are breeders because at the basis of that word they are, indeed, choosing to put a particular male with a particular female and therefore allowing/causing the "breeding" of those two animals. On the other hand, I use that term for someone who does their due diligence in gathering information and researching seedstock decisions, has the intention of improving their chosen breed, has definite goals in that direction, willingness and ability to cull toward those goals, and resources to follow their plan with integrity.

Now, to the word "culling." If an animal that you are responsible for bringing into the world has a defect that will cause the animal undue hardship/pain now or in the future or is a non-viable situation (would not survive on their own due to the defect), I say euthanize them. Cleft palates in puppies, extreme dwarfism in miniature donkeys/horses leading to extremely painful early onset arthritis (in a 2 year old), that sort of thing. But if an animal has a DQ for breed standard but can still live a happy and productive life by bringing joy as a pet or companion or still fulfill a purpose like food production, I am all for it as long as there is full disclosure regarding the defect with the clear statement that this animal is NOT breeding quality and should not be bred (or would not be bred by the person selling it) including the specific reasons why not.

We cannot control what other people do after the sale, except perhaps in the case of registered animals to some degree. I have sold a pedigreed and registered animal without their papers, notifying the registry that the animal was sold as pet quality and a non-breeder which is my right as the breeder of the animal. (In this case, the registry defines the "breeder" as the owner of the dam/mother at the time of service/insemination.) This doesn't mean the buyer or someone down the line won't breed the animal, but it won't be a registered/pedigreed offspring. Of course chickens aren't registered, but I'm hoping my point regarding ethics, integrity, and intent is coming across.

 

[Wynette]

Creek, I agree. All breeds are composite breeds, except the Jungle Fowl.

Interesting comments you make about balance; it's something I'm personally VERY keen on. I spoke with Walt Leonard once on the phone about it, and he said he was surprised to hear me say that, indicating that most folks don't pay much attention to balance in a bird, but that it was very important. Most breeds should be balanced, front to back. It's something I watch for all the time.

One of my current cock birds has excellent balance - here he is when he was younger (I don't have many pictures of him, but this picture is a good one to refer to when we talk about balance):



Note how, if you made a line straight up from the point where his legs join his body, it would split his body almost exactly equally in half? Nicely balanced male.

Here is a good one to compare with. This is a Silver Penciled Rock I had a few years back. While she has a few nice qualities, her balance was off; she was not used as a breeder as a result. Do you see the difference? This hen is far too front heavy:

 

[Wynette]

Semantics perhaps, but this is my experience. In the other classes of livestock I have had over the decades, people seem to be confused about the definition of "breeder." There are plenty of producers, raisers, etc. out there who think they are breeders because at the basis of that word they are, indeed, choosing to put a particular male with a particular female and therefore allowing/causing the "breeding" of those two animals. On the other hand, I use that term for someone who does their due diligence in gathering information and researching seedstock decisions, has the intention of improving their chosen breed, has definite goals in that direction, willingness and ability to cull toward those goals, and resources to follow their plan with integrity.

Now, to the word "culling." If an animal that you are responsible for bringing into the world has a defect that will cause the animal undue hardship/pain now or in the future or is a non-viable situation (would not survive on their own due to the defect), I say euthanize them. Cleft palates in puppies, extreme dwarfism in miniature donkeys/horses leading to extremely painful early onset arthritis (in a 2 year old), that sort of thing. But if an animal has a DQ for breed standard but can still live a happy and productive life by bringing joy as a pet or companion or still fulfill a purpose like food production, I am all for it as long as there is full disclosure regarding the defect with the clear statement that this animal is NOT breeding quality and should not be bred (or would not be bred by the person selling it) including the specific reasons why not.

We cannot control what other people do after the sale, except perhaps in the case of registered animals to some degree. I have sold a pedigreed and registered animal without their papers, notifying the registry that the animal was sold as pet quality and a non-breeder which is my right as the breeder of the animal. (In this case, the registry defines the "breeder" as the owner of the dam/mother at the time of service/insemination.) This doesn't mean the buyer or someone down the line won't breed the animal, but it won't be a registered/pedigreed offspring. Of course chickens aren't registered, but I'm hoping my point regarding ethics, integrity, and intent is coming across.

Excellent post, I do agree with you to some degree. Female chickens that are culls for issues like we've been talking about, yes, I will sell those as layers. I would never charge a high fee for a cull Marans female; around here, I can get $5 for a POL pullet, and I'll usually charge $7 for a Marans POL pullet because they lay such pretty eggs and are sought after for that. I ALWAYS ALWAYS tell buyers the pullet should not be used for breeding, and point out why, comparing her to one from the breed pen so they see the difference.

The things that I personally cull for in my Black Coppers are any with eyes that are too dark, an incorrect topline (that's a tough one...seems very few females have the proper back angle), shank feathering too heavy or too light, incorrect wing carriage, not enough copper in the hackle, etc. As the years have gone by, I see less and less issues...and each year, I see improvement. It's a slow process, but I'm quite pleased with where I am. Hopefully, I will continue in this vein.

 

[snowbird]

Wynette, Start the discussion on what to ask when buying eggs, chicks and adult stock. This would be the same for any breed. Do not know much but will help with what I know to be true.

 

[Wynette]

Alright, to be sure, someone interested in getting Marans ought to first get ahold of the SOP. Then, contacting one of the Marans clubs to find a local breeder may be a good start. Another way to find folks breeding them would be to attend some APA-judged poultry shows in your area. Ask the breeders you find some of the following questions:

How long have you been breeding this variety?
What do you like and dislike about Marans?
Are you affiliated with a Marans club? If so, which one?
How large is your flock?
How many chicks do you hatch per year, and how many do you keep for breeders typically?
What are you working to improve this year?
What are some of the things you've worked on in the past, and how did you overcome them?

Just some basic questions like this; a breeder who is working to move the breed forward should be more than willing to chat about these things. It's a great way to see if you "gel" with that person, also. It's not essential, but really nice to be able to stay in contact with the folks you get your birds from.

Don, what would you add? Anyone else care to add their questions?