Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[snowbird]

Alright, to be sure, someone interested in getting Marans ought to first get ahold of the SOP. Then, contacting one of the Marans clubs to find a local breeder may be a good start. Another way to find folks breeding them would be to attend some APA-judged poultry shows in your area. Ask the breeders you find some of the following questions:

How long have you been breeding this variety?
What do you like and dislike about Marans?
Are you affiliated with a Marans club? If so, which one?
How large is your flock?
How many chicks do you hatch per year, and how many do you keep for breeders typically?
What are you working to improve this year?
What are some of the things you've worked on in the past, and how did you overcome them?

Just some basic questions like this; a breeder who is working to move the breed forward should be more than willing to chat about these things. It's a great way to see if you "gel" with that person, also. It's not essential, but really nice to be able to stay in contact with the folks you get your birds from.

Don, what would you add? Anyone else care to add their questions?

I will deal with BC Marans to start with,

Do your Marans have white in Hackle, wing and tail.
If on the internet, are your pictures your actual Marans or Pirated pictures ?
Do your BC have the desired Hackle and Saddle color
What color is the lower body soft feathering from the vent to leg.
What color is the undercolor on your BC Males ?

If seller does not freely give you information move on to someone else.
If at all possible visit the breeder.
If the breeder has only raised the marans the same year from eggs, move on
If breeder only has Marans from a setting of eggs , most likely they are brother-sister , move on.
Whether a person has won at a show does not mean much, as they may of had the only Marans.
Ask who the Judge was if person says they have won at a show, some are better.
Try and attend a few shows before buying if at all possible.

 

[Maggiesdad]

...snip ...
How many chicks do you hatch per year, and how many do you keep for breeders typically?
...snip...

Anyone else care to add their questions?

So... if Breeder 'A' keeps back the best six birds out of 100 chicks on the ground, and Beginner 'B' wishes to start a flock from 'A's' hatching eggs, wouldn't 'B' need to hatch around 100 chicks to have a shot at growing out a pair or trio that would be representative of what 'A' was working with?

It would seem that folks that wish to start breeding from a dozen hatching eggs (instead of started birds) are doing the breed a disservice.


lol now I've opened my mouth and removed all doubt...

 

[upthecreek]

Creek, I agree. All breeds are composite breeds, except the Jungle Fowl.

Interesting comments you make about balance; it's something I'm personally VERY keen on. I spoke with Walt Leonard once on the phone about it, and he said he was surprised to hear me say that, indicating that most folks don't pay much attention to balance in a bird, but that it was very important. Most breeds should be balanced, front to back. It's something I watch for all the time.

One of my current cock birds has excellent balance - here he is when he was younger (I don't have many pictures of him, but this picture is a good one to refer to when we talk about balance):



Note how, if you made a line straight up from the point where his legs join his body, it would split his body almost exactly equally in half? Nicely balanced male.

Here is a good one to compare with. This is a Silver Penciled Rock I had a few years back. While she has a few nice qualities, her balance was off; she was not used as a breeder as a result. Do you see the difference? This hen is far too front heavy:

Wynette ,
Your sample birds are dead on target !! I don't know how to explain the feeling when i see a balanced bird except "it's very good one" (then i want to see if can buy them)lol .
I'm thrilled to find someone that knows in detail about balance and the necessity of balance !! (that's great)
Another point about balance and reason for it is : with balance a bird in the wild will stay alive much longer(Mother Nature will take of that) .... with us it makes for a much more competent , long lived bird . Look at the balanced running back on a football team (unreal what they can do) same with Boxers (balance is essential with the Boxer) .

I'm not supprised hearing a Game breeder talk a lot about balance(smile) as it just may be they realize this more than others about Balance (Walt is a Good One!!), lucky You 'to have him as friend' !!

We have bred and shown Papillons for about 30 years(slowed down now with disabilities ,etc) and we Love it when the Sporting dog Judge does the judging for us (and you know the reason) .

 

[OHmamma]

So... if Breeder 'A' keeps back the best six birds out of 100 chicks on the ground, and Beginner 'B' wishes to start a flock from 'A's' hatching eggs, wouldn't 'B' need to hatch around 100 chicks to have a shot at growing out a pair or trio that would be representative of what 'A' was working with?

It would seem that folks that wish to start breeding from a dozen hatching eggs (instead of started birds) are doing the breed a disservice.


lol now I've opened my mouth and removed all doubt...

Hi,

I have had marans for a while six generations worth and counting. I keep several "lines" of BC that I have meticulously picked over and hatched from. I won't say how many but those that know me also know I don't mess around. If someone wants to get a start on the breed, my suggestion is find more than one good breeder. They don't need to show because that isn't everything. Just don't fall for the "french" title that is goofy. We are now breeding these birds to the APA standard. Well, unless you want French but then make sure you understand the differences as far as that goes. There are maybe two good lines of French birds in the US so goodluck getting your hands on some.

Whichever version you choose the breeders should be willing to show you pictures of Adults and eggs and offspring. Recent pics not ones from 2004 or "last years eggs" I personally would not buy from (or sell from) Pullets or unproven males period. They should also be willing to discuss issues they have. Really. There are no perfect lines so if you find someone selling perfect birds ask them to see their unicorn too.

While the dark eggs are the sole purpose of the breed just because you see one or two in a carton doesn't mean squat. Some of them drop a #8 one day then nothing but #3 or #4 the rest of the season. Those are junk in my opinion and need to be culled. So when you see pale eggs and are given the "oh they were laying darker when they started" line. Walk away if they aren't culling for egg color duration they aren't really culling for egg color either.

As much as some people hate the idea I would cross two lines. Sort out the funk then make the best you can from what you have. It beats inbreeding and you will be able to see things "little truths" that you might not find from linebred flocks. The kind of little things that pop up in the fifth or sixth generation like gold halos, white underfluff or "mossy' patterns....But you better get you a genetics book and READ. It can get pretty hairy. The Black Copper variety is very hard to control, it is not a cookie cutter variety at all. Especially when working with unknown traits that are not in the phenotype. You either have to learn how to make it or learn how to fake it and as much as people are gonna hate me for saying that everyone of them knows it is the truth.

What you see isn't always what you get either. Sometimes you have to take a chance. Sometimes you get lucky. Most of the time you are slightly disappointed. Just remember Marans ain't for sissies. Keep trying, find some mentors. There are a lot of nice Marans breeders willing to share and help.

But you know, that was just MY opinion.

Goodluck!

 

[Wynette]

So... if Breeder 'A' keeps back the best six birds out of 100 chicks on the ground, and Beginner 'B' wishes to start a flock from 'A's' hatching eggs, wouldn't 'B' need to hatch around 100 chicks to have a shot at growing out a pair or trio that would be representative of what 'A' was working with?

It would seem that folks that wish to start breeding from a dozen hatching eggs (instead of started birds) are doing the breed a disservice.


lol now I've opened my mouth and removed all doubt...

Maggiesdad - most folks who have been breeding for some time hold back 10% (or less) for breeders. I know with myself, if I hatch off 50 birds and keep 3, I feel like I'm doing well. Here's the thing; you can cull heavily or lightly; in my opinion, both ways can get you to the finish line, but one will get you there much more quickly. Right now, since they are so new, most breeders are holding back the best of the best for themselves; that leaves the rest of the folks needing to work with what is left out there. I personally did probably 15 hatches of 15-20 eggs each to get my very first breeding pair. Is it frustrating having so many to weed through & cull? HECK YES! Could I have kept more, mediocre birds? HECK YES! There's not an etched-in-stone right or wrong way to breed. Do what you can - that's not the same thing for everyone. Not everyone has the means to hatch off 1,000 chicks a year. If you can only hatch off a few dozen, keep only the 1 or 2 very best ones and go from there. If you are fortunate enough to have the space, time, and resoures to hatch off 1,000, then by all means, go for it!

Started birds are by far a better way to go, as it's more "what you see is what you get." I recently sold a trio that were nice birds, but culls for my program, to a young man that really sounded like he knew his stuff. These birds were nice, just not "nice enough" for what I was wanting myself. But, a nice start for someone. This young man was able to point out what he was looking for in the pen of maybe 48 juveniles I had that I had just sorted through. When I began to realize that this young man knew his stuff, was willing to learn, and eager - I was more than happy to help give him a start. When he first contacted me, I told him I may have something, but I wans't sure yet...I tried to leave it open, as I really wanted to be sure that if I DID have some keepers that I didn't personally need, they would be going to someone who would really know how to use them. I took some grief about this from some breeder friends...but you know what, I know that I did the right thing at the end of the day. This young man has stayed in contact on occasion, and I beleive that he's moving forward now.

Wynette ,
Your sample birds are dead on target !! I don't know how to explain the feeling when i see a balanced bird except "it's very good one" (then i want to see if can buy them)lol .
I'm thrilled to find someone that knows in detail about balance and the necessity of balance !! (that's great)
Another point about balance and reason for it is : with balance a bird in the wild will stay alive much longer(Mother Nature will take of that) .... with us it makes for a much more competent , long lived bird . Look at the balanced running back on a football team (unreal what they can do) same with Boxers (balance is essential with the Boxer) .

I'm not supprised hearing a Game breeder talk a lot about balance(smile) as it just may be they realize this more than others about Balance (Walt is a Good One!!), lucky You 'to have him as friend' !!

We have bred and shown Papillons for about 30 years(slowed down now with disabilities ,etc) and we Love it when the Sporting dog Judge does the judging for us (and you know the reason) .

I honestly can't take credit for being a stickler for balance - I used to show (stock) horses in halter classes as well as riding classes; in halter, if your horse isn't balanced, you didn't place. Period. So, it was important to learn balance. As I learned, I also realized the things you mention above; survival of the fittest, the fact that balance is nature's way of providing the female and male with the best chance to be able to procreate, lay eggs easily, defend themselves, etc. (sidebar: Boxers are gorgeous!! What a stretch from Boxers to Papillons!

neat - thanks for sharing that!)

 

[Wynette]

There are no perfect lines so if you find someone selling perfect birds ask them to see their unicorn too.

 

[upthecreek]

Just so everyone knows. It is absolutely normal to get BC, Mahogany and wheat from the breeding of BC Marans. (This was the reason they could not go into the APA as Brown Red like in France).

Snowbird ..... (bothering You again) ............. would You mind elaborating on the above sentence from one of your posts ? in "parentheses" above.

(for my saved folder on Marans info)
Thanks ,
Shannon

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
It was determined in the very beginning that because of the Straw and Mahogany gene that the BC would not be able to go into the APA SOP as Brown Red. In the brown RED standard there is no allowance for these two colors.

I asked the Marans club before the first qualifying meet and this was what I was told.

 

[upthecreek]

Quote:
It was determined in the very beginning that because of the Straw and Mahogany gene that the BC would not be able to go into the APA SOP as Brown Red. In the brown RED standard there is no allowance for these two colors.

I asked the Marans club before the first qualifying meet and this was what I was told.
Thanks Snowbird ..... sounds good to me , i needed it for my record/info stash .

 

[ChickenManTN]

Maggiesdad - most folks who have been breeding for some time hold back 10% (or less) for breeders. I know with myself, if I hatch off 50 birds and keep 3, I feel like I'm doing well. Here's the thing; you can cull heavily or lightly; in my opinion, both ways can get you to the finish line, but one will get you there much more quickly. Right now, since they are so new, most breeders are holding back the best of the best for themselves; that leaves the rest of the folks needing to work with what is left out there. I personally did probably 15 hatches of 15-20 eggs each to get my very first breeding pair. Is it frustrating having so many to weed through & cull? HECK YES! Could I have kept more, mediocre birds? HECK YES! There's not an etched-in-stone right or wrong way to breed. Do what you can - that's not the same thing for everyone. Not everyone has the means to hatch off 1,000 chicks a year. If you can only hatch off a few dozen, keep only the 1 or 2 very best ones and go from there. If you are fortunate enough to have the space, time, and resoures to hatch off 1,000, then by all means, go for it!

Started birds are by far a better way to go, as it's more "what you see is what you get." I recently sold a trio that were nice birds, but culls for my program, to a young man that really sounded like he knew his stuff. These birds were nice, just not "nice enough" for what I was wanting myself. But, a nice start for someone. This young man was able to point out what he was looking for in the pen of maybe 48 juveniles I had that I had just sorted through. When I began to realize that this young man knew his stuff, was willing to learn, and eager - I was more than happy to help give him a start. When he first contacted me, I told him I may have something, but I wans't sure yet...I tried to leave it open, as I really wanted to be sure that if I DID have some keepers that I didn't personally need, they would be going to someone who would really know how to use them. I took some grief about this from some breeder friends...but you know what, I know that I did the right thing at the end of the day. This young man has stayed in contact on occasion, and I beleive that he's moving forward now.

I honestly can't take credit for being a stickler for balance - I used to show (stock) horses in halter classes as well as riding classes; in halter, if your horse isn't balanced, you didn't place. Period. So, it was important to learn balance. As I learned, I also realized the things you mention above; survival of the fittest, the fact that balance is nature's way of providing the female and male with the best chance to be able to procreate, lay eggs easily, defend themselves, etc. (sidebar: Boxers are gorgeous!! What a stretch from Boxers to Papillons!

neat - thanks for sharing that!)

O...M...G... It is amazing to realize the difference between 83 percent and 94 percent (or rather 17 percent and 6 percent.) I feel a bit out of place, being so green and commenting on your thread, but I am impressed by what appears to be a slight difference of percentage and how it actually translates into reality. I got the number 83/17 by buying 6 cockerels and picking a favorite (83 percent culled, not BCM, but another breed I am working with now.) You got 94/6 by culling 94 percent, but you worked your butt off to get there!! This is clearly not a finite mathematical game. It is an art. There is MUCH more than numbers to be appreciated here. I commend your hard work and dedication. I was tickled pink to receive my first 18 BCM hatching eggs yesterday, and at first glance I was discouraged by reading this thread. But you know what? The best BCM rooster that ever lived hatched from one egg and I have eighteen, so that's a decent start, I reckon. Thank you for permitting my presence in this room (though you had no choice in the matter!) Seriously, I am impressed an inspired.

-edited to add P.S...

P.S. Don't be alarmed. I did also order eggs from another breeder so my birds won't be too hillbilly homogenized.