Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[scflock]

You can always test the birds to see if they are carriers by breeding to a yellow-skinned breed like Plymouth Rock or Rhode Island Red. Hatch out enough of the offspring to avoid statistical error---I would say at least 6. If your bird is carrying yellow, 50% of the offspring should show it, the other 50% will be carriers.

I had a good look at them in the daylight when I got home last night. I was hoping it was just the lighting on the camera or something, but after that being pointed out to me, it was blatantly obvious. 2 of the 4 roos are showing, and thankfully none of the hens, but I just assume they are carriers. Now I'm torn on what to do. Like I said, I'm not breeding showbirds, but I do want to know they are correct. My feathers are too yellow, and I have an obvious leg flaw, so now I'm trying to decide how to proceed with proper birds. My first Marans were cuckoo, eggs weren't dark enough. Now I've been burned after driving 2 hrs to pick up what I thought were the right birds. My fault for not studying first. Now I am so obsessed with getting proper birds that I am leaning towards buying directly from one of the main breeders. I have had some correspondence with Brenda Little, and I really want some of her eggs. That's a lot of money to spend for backyard birds, but I think it would be worth it to me just knowing that I am starting on the right foot. I know I sound ignorant, and I am. I was about to make the same mistake with these birds that so many others do to corrupt the line. This thread kept me from doing that. I don't want to annoy you guys asking juvenile questions, but I have learned more here this week than I knew I had to learn, so I may hang around for a while...

 

[desertmarcy]

I had a good look at them in the daylight when I got home last night. I was hoping it was just the lighting on the camera or something, but after that being pointed out to me, it was blatantly obvious. 2 of the 4 roos are showing, and thankfully none of the hens, but I just assume they are carriers. Now I'm torn on what to do. Like I said, I'm not breeding showbirds, but I do want to know they are correct. My feathers are too yellow, and I have an obvious leg flaw, so now I'm trying to decide how to proceed with proper birds. My first Marans were cuckoo, eggs weren't dark enough. Now I've been burned after driving 2 hrs to pick up what I thought were the right birds. My fault for not studying first. Now I am so obsessed with getting proper birds that I am leaning towards buying directly from one of the main breeders. I have had some correspondence with Brenda Little, and I really want some of her eggs. That's a lot of money to spend for backyard birds, but I think it would be worth it to me just knowing that I am starting on the right foot. I know I sound ignorant, and I am. I was about to make the same mistake with these birds that so many others do to corrupt the line. This thread kept me from doing that. I don't want to annoy you guys asking juvenile questions, but I have learned more here this week than I knew I had to learn, so I may hang around for a while...

It sure can be frustrating. The person I got chicks from, some were from Brenda (Little Peddler), told me he still has to cull at lot from her line. That's why I was saying, no matter who you get them from, a lot will be culls. It is just the nature of this breed because they are new to the U.S., only having been admitted to the APA SOP in 2010. So there hasn't been a century of breeding put into them like with our old standards such as Rhode Island Red, White Rocks. Personally I would not spend that much money on chicks. It is outrageous. I sell mine for $8 each and I've got some nice birds. Not perfect, but definitely something you can work with. If you are interested, send me a PM, I will ship.

I am in the process of testing all my males for yellow. I know my original line does not carry it, but I got birds from someone else a couple of years ago, and a few, not many--but a few, have had yellow soles. And last year I crossed that line with mine. Greatly improved on the hackle color of the pullets, but decreased their size, so I'm not using any of the pullets I hatched last year. But I am using a nice cockerel and have him over a few of the hens from my line. I got an order from a poultry judge for some chicks from that male, which I thought was a big compliment: he said he has the best topline he's seen on a Black Copper. And in an attempt to keep the other line pure, I am breeding a male from that line back to my original hens from that line. So he is being tested to, but the Barred Rock I have in with him has been slow to lay. Just started getting eggs from her. Now to see if they are fertile.

 

[Alaskan]

Quote:
brilliant idea!

 

[Alaskan]

What do you all think of my rooster.... he does have some feathers on the legs, just very little.... but I think that his color is very good.

He is almost a year.

 

[One Chick Two]

You can always test the birds to see if they are carriers by breeding to a yellow-skinned breed like Plymouth Rock or Rhode Island Red. Hatch out enough of the offspring to avoid statistical error---I would say at least 6. If your bird is carrying yellow, 50% of the offspring should show it, the other 50% will be carriers.

desertmarcy,

Take this or leave it.... but...I was told by a top breeder (that I trust) that he believes there is no reliable test for weeding out yellow shank carriers. From what was relayed to me, he went on to explain that yellow shanks can skip a generation as well. Since there are no yellow shank Marans... these are a completely different breed that was folded in. It's insidious.

Okay... when you test mate pure birchen to RIR for Wheaten testing, most of the shanks of the chicks look slate over yellow orange. Are you saying the shanks on affected or failed test mate chicks would be 100% orange yellow? Are you actually finding any reliability to this test?

That said, the yellow shanks I showed earlier belonged to a cockerel from a "top" show winning line. His sister, a pullet (without other the issues of the other flockmates) looks lovely now, even to the point of possibly could be shown now I believe- and is laying the darkest egg from any of the lines we tested last year. Believe me- it's a bummer she came from a line with yellow shanks. If you found there is a reliability to the test, I think I would go as far as to test her.
Quote:
The LP line definitely has some things to work out! The chicks show as mostly black instead of penguins. Have you test mated any yet?

 

[desertmarcy]

What do you all think of my rooster.... he does have some feathers on the legs, just very little.... but I think that his color is very good.

He is almost a year.

His profile is showing a "U" shape on the topline. Too high tail. Type should always come before color.

 

[desertmarcy]

desertmarcy,

Take this or leave it.... but...I was told by a top breeder (that I trust) that he believes there is no reliable test for weeding out yellow shank carriers. From what was relayed to me, he went on to explain that yellow shanks can skip a generation as well. Since there are no yellow shank Marans... these are a completely different breed that was folded in. It's insidious.

Okay... when you test mate pure birchen to RIR for Wheaten testing, most of the shanks of the chicks look slate over yellow orange. Are you saying the shanks on affected or failed test mate chicks would be 100% orange yellow? Are you actually finding any reliability to this test?

That said, the yellow shanks I showed earlier belonged to a cockerel from a "top" show winning line. His sister, a pullet (without other the issues of the other flockmates) looks lovely now, even to the point of possibly could be shown now I believe- and is laying the darkest egg from any of the lines we tested last year. Believe me- it's a bummer she came from a line with yellow shanks. If you found there is a reliability to the test, I think I would go as far as to test her.

The LP line definitely has some things to work out! The chicks show as mostly black instead of penguins. Have you test mated any yet?

I don't profess to be very knowledgeable in chicken color genetics. I got the idea from another breeder friend of mine and it made sense, if yellow is recessive, then test mate to dominant yellow to find carriers. If there is more to it than that, I don't know. I thought it was worth a try since I had extra Barred Rock hens and I can always sell the offspring as black sex-links since this is a sex-linked cross. So, I have some eggs in the incubator and more to set for the test matings and this is the first time I've done this so I can't answer your question about reliability. I may ask this question on a FB group I belong to that has a lot of show breeders.

As far as being a different breed folded in, all our breeds are composites of different breeds. I would not go so far as to say if yellow pops out, they aren't Marans. The same thing happens with Ameraucanas. The line I am having problems with goes all the way back to Wade Jeane, via only one breeder who got Wade's Black Coppers when he dispersed them. He's had the same line for 14+ years and I acquired a box of chicks from him in 2013. So the yellow has been lurking for a while.

In any case, I'll post back here once the test chicks hatch and lose their baby yellow (or not!) and let you all know what happens.

 

[scflock]

I don't profess to be very knowledgeable in chicken color genetics. I got the idea from another breeder friend of mine and it made sense, if yellow is recessive, then test mate to dominant yellow to find carriers. If there is more to it than that, I don't know. I thought it was worth a try since I had extra Barred Rock hens and I can always sell the offspring as black sex-links since this is a sex-linked cross. So, I have some eggs in the incubator and more to set for the test matings and this is the first time I've done this so I can't answer your question about reliability. I may ask this question on a FB group I belong to that has a lot of show breeders.

As far as being a different breed folded in, all our breeds are composites of different breeds. I would not go so far as to say if yellow pops out, they aren't Marans. The same thing happens with Ameraucanas. The line I am having problems with goes all the way back to Wade Jeane, via only one breeder who got Wade's Black Coppers when he dispersed them. He's had the same line for 14+ years and  I acquired a box of chicks from him in 2013. So the yellow has been lurking for a while.

In any case, I'll post back here once the test chicks hatch and lose their baby yellow (or not!) and let you all know what happens.

That's interesting. Mine are supposedly Wade Jeane line, and although I can't prove that, I bought them about 30 miles from where Wade was, although not from Gavin. So it is possible to carry yellow shanks directly from Wade's line? The debate over whether or not to call them Marans is where I'm confused. I understand why someone showing wouldn't want to use them for anything, but what about the guys that do this for a hobby and just want dark eggs and to sell extra chicks? I don't want to dilute the line, but if people are selling culls, isn't that the same thing, or are you eating culls?

 

[desertmarcy]

That's interesting. Mine are supposedly Wade Jeane line, and although I can't prove that, I bought them about 30 miles from where Wade was, although not from Gavin. So it is possible to carry yellow shanks directly from Wade's line? The debate over whether or not to call them Marans is where I'm confused. I understand why someone showing wouldn't want to use them for anything, but what about the guys that do this for a hobby and just want dark eggs and to sell extra chicks? I don't want to dilute the line, but if people are selling culls, isn't that the same thing, or are you eating culls?

Well apparently it is possible, since that's what I see. Culled (killed) one of the cockerels that I got directly, that first year, so I knew there was the potential of it being there. I'd have to scan through my records, I think I only had one pullet with yellow soles last year. I sell the pullets as layers if I feel confident the buyer really just wants hens and is not into breeding. I culled, as in butchered, a couple of pullets with sprigs last year because I don't like to take the chance that someone would breed them since comb sprigs are such a problem to get rid of. Now on the cockerels, I butcher all my culls and we eat them or I sell them processed. There are enough crappy cockerels out there already, I don't want to sell people something I wouldn't think about using myself for breeding. Now a GOOD cockerel? Black Copper Marans? Worth at least $75 IMO. Because you will spend that and more raising up tons of them looking for a good one. Most of them have high tails.

The problem comes with the selling of extra chicks. You never know what someone is going to do with the birds. The vast majority of people just want the dark eggs, but there are enough that want the birds to look right, too. I would not use a bird for breeding that had yellow in its shanks or soles. Because you know every offspring is going to be a carrier. They are still Marans, they just have a major fault. I believe it would be a disqualifying fault. That doesn't mean they aren't that breed, just not a good representation of it.

 

[scflock]

S

Well apparently it is possible, since that's what I see. Culled (killed) one of the cockerels that I got directly, that first year, so I knew there was the potential of it being there. I'd have to scan through my records, I think I only had one pullet with yellow soles last year. I sell the pullets as layers if I feel confident the buyer really just wants hens and is not into breeding. I culled, as in butchered, a couple of pullets with sprigs last year because I don't like to take the chance that someone would breed them since comb sprigs are such a problem to get rid of. Now on the cockerels, I butcher all my culls and we eat them or I sell them processed. There are enough crappy cockerels out there already, I don't want to sell people something I wouldn't think about using myself for breeding. Now a GOOD cockerel? Black Copper Marans? Worth at least $75 IMO. Because you will spend that and more raising up tons of them looking for a good one. Most of them have high tails.

The problem comes with the selling of extra chicks. You never know what someone is going to do with the birds. The vast majority of people just want the dark eggs, but there are enough that want the birds to look right, too. I would not use a bird for breeding that had yellow in its shanks or soles. Because you know every offspring is going to be a carrier. They are still Marans, they just have a major fault. I believe it would be a disqualifying fault. That doesn't mean they aren't that breed, just not a good representation of it.

So the choice I have is sell mine with full disclosure or start over. This is the first breed I have ever had that I wanted to work with, so I think I will start over. I sell enough layers, I want something I can be more proud of. I don't want to be the guy that the breeders hate.