Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[Ihilani Coffee]

I am still going by what I see on my faulty birds until I get a proper batch of marans. Of the 4 cockerels, two were what I think is too open, one seems to be listing to one side, and one is tighter, and I actually thought his was the best looking of the bunch. So you are going for a little open? Two of mine look almost wildly open. I have heard wry tail mentioned, but I don't know exactly what that means. The male that I showed you the picture of, whose hackles I thought were the most copper, looks like his hackle color will come in similar to yours. The other 3 will be strongly straw colored, but this one will have that copper to yellow back to copper fade. I know that my terminology is way off, but I am just learning, so bear with me. I am assuming that is what you refer to as the "halo". A halo is acceptable? If so, how do you determine a good one from a bad one?

Are there photos of these tails we can reference with the above quote? I am having difficulty imagining a "wildly open" or "too open" tail. I believe the open or "tented" tail on a bird is related to width of the pelvis and hindquarters, and there are an awful lot of narrow back ends around that go with the pinched tails. These open and wide HQ lead to good production in hens, and yet there are also hens of all kinds of breeds and mixes with pinched tails that lay like crazy. It's a bit confusing, though I understand the premise behind open pelvis pointing to good production.

 

[scflock]

Are there photos of these tails we can reference with the above quote?  I am having difficulty imagining a "wildly open"  or "too open" tail.  I believe the open or "tented" tail on a bird is related to width of the pelvis and hindquarters, and there are an awful lot of narrow back ends around that go with the pinched tails.  These open and wide HQ lead to good production in hens, and yet there are also hens of all kinds of breeds and mixes with pinched tails that lay like crazy.  It's a bit confusing, though I understand the premise behind open pelvis pointing to good production.

I will try to get some pictures today. What I'm calling wildly open may be correct, and the one I think looks good may be too tight. This is exactly why I'm staying on this thread for a while before I buy another Marans

 

[scflock]

Are there photos of these tails we can reference with the above quote?  I am having difficulty imagining a "wildly open"  or "too open" tail.  I believe the open or "tented" tail on a bird is related to width of the pelvis and hindquarters, and there are an awful lot of narrow back ends around that go with the pinched tails.  These open and wide HQ lead to good production in hens, and yet there are also hens of all kinds of breeds and mixes with pinched tails that lay like crazy.  It's a bit confusing, though I understand the premise behind open pelvis pointing to good production.

These birds are off, and I know it. I'm using these for future reference. The first is the most compact, but also the least amount of straw color and smallest of the group. The second is the one I called wild, is the largest, and has way too much straw. Even his eyes are too light

 

[snowbird]

Just to make it a little more clear what I mean by open tail. I am talking about side to side.
It should be open from top all the way down. Now the tail feathers should not be spread too much from top to bottom. Your second picture is close to what I am talking about. Don

 

[scflock]

Just to make it a little more clear  what I mean by open tail. I am talking about side to side.
It should be open from top all the way down. Now the tail feathers should not be spread too much from top to bottom. Your second picture is close to what I am talking about. Don

Ok, that helps me understand. Thanks.

 

[One Chick Two]

Ok, that helps me understand. Thanks.

Here is a pullet with nice tail width. She was being shown at the Pacific Poultry Breeder's Association in Ca. this past Jan.

 

[Ihilani Coffee]

A
B
C
D
Quote: Now you have me searching through photos looking for male butts, Don! I have so many photos of hens' backsides, but I didn't think it would be helpful to try to judge them against males. Would you help us learn by rating these males on HQ only? I know the A & B are better angles for this (and both are Marans cockerels). C is an Isbar cockerel and D is a Rhodebar cock.

I'll be brave and give my opinion with reasons, and welcome corrections or insights that I am not able to "see" at this point. I would rate these HQ as follows: B, A, D, C. B is showing width in the tail that tapers less than the other males here. His sickles are literally "open" when viewed from behind. A also shows this width at the top of the tail, but less so than B and you can see the taper of his body from shoulders to pelvis. D's tail is a bit more tented or A-shaped, though this cock shows tremendous width in body (and is more mature than the other three). C is at a disadvantage in these photos, as he is a younger cockerel and the angle of the photo and brightness/shadow is hiding his HQ somewhat.

Thank you for helping us all learn. With the cock/erels, sometimes the feathering leads our eyes somewhere else and makes it difficult to "see" as well as with females. In D, at first glance his tail looks pinched at the top, but if you mentally remove the sickles it's really quite open.

 

[snowbird]

A
B
C
D
Quote:

Now you have me searching through photos looking for male butts, Don! I have so many photos of hens' backsides, but I didn't think it would be helpful to try to judge them against males. Would you help us learn by rating these males on HQ only? I know the A & B are better angles for this (and both are Marans cockerels). C is an Isbar cockerel and D is a Rhodebar cock.

I'll be brave and give my opinion with reasons, and welcome corrections or insights that I am not able to "see" at this point. I would rate these HQ as follows: B, A, D, C. B is showing width in the tail that tapers less than the other males here. His sickles are literally "open" when viewed from behind. A also shows this width at the top of the tail, but less so than B and you can see the taper of his body from shoulders to pelvis. D's tail is a bit more tented or A-shaped, though this cock shows tremendous width in body (and is more mature than the other three). C is at a disadvantage in these photos, as he is a younger cockerel and the angle of the photo and brightness/shadow is hiding his HQ somewhat.

Thank you for helping us all learn. With the cock/erels, sometimes the feathering leads our eyes somewhere else and makes it difficult to "see" as well as with females. In D, at first glance his tail looks pinched at the top, but if you mentally remove the sickles it's really quite open.

Yes, I agree with you as I like the Tail set on B best of all and would rate his tail as what I would want to use as a breeder and believe with full feathers he would look even better.

I would also suggest that everyone look in the SOP thread I brought to the front there is a lot of good info. and pictures there. If you have any questions related to the thred just let me know. Don

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
The width on this tail is fine at the bottom but is pinched at the top , should be a little open at the top.The openness of the tail is very important and as has been said before has a relation to the back having width all the way to the rear end. I should also say that when you have a short back like this female has it will cause the tail to rise

 

[One Chick Two]

A
B
C
D
Now you have me searching through photos looking for male butts, Don! I have so many photos of hens' backsides, but I didn't think it would be helpful to try to judge them against males. Would you help us learn by rating these males on HQ only? I know the A & B are better angles for this (and both are Marans cockerels). C is an Isbar cockerel and D is a Rhodebar cock.

I'll be brave and give my opinion with reasons, and welcome corrections or insights that I am not able to "see" at this point. I would rate these HQ as follows: B, A, D, C. B is showing width in the tail that tapers less than the other males here. His sickles are literally "open" when viewed from behind. A also shows this width at the top of the tail, but less so than B and you can see the taper of his body from shoulders to pelvis. D's tail is a bit more tented or A-shaped, though this cock shows tremendous width in body (and is more mature than the other three). C is at a disadvantage in these photos, as he is a younger cockerel and the angle of the photo and brightness/shadow is hiding his HQ somewhat.

Thank you for helping us all learn. With the cock/erels, sometimes the feathering leads our eyes somewhere else and makes it difficult to "see" as well as with females. In D, at first glance his tail looks pinched at the top, but if you mentally remove the sickles it's really quite open.

Just looking from the tail width in back, my personal liking is A & B for Marans, and the stance looks good too. C has great width, just has longer sickle feathers than my own personal preference of Marans with shortish tail and average sickles. D seems from this angle that his long sickle feathers might be pretty tall too.

Here's how ours usually look. lol Well, in the wind anyway.