Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[aussieheelr]

Just a quick reminder, since I can't stop thinking about it... Saturday-Sunday is the Newnan, GA show! Crossing those fingers our BCMs get accepted to APA!!!!

 

[pinkchick]

Quote:
WoW! Was I ever close when I made assumptions about him and his coloring as being dark, when you posted those other photos of him before.
I like him! I would use him....even with his "too dark" issues....here's why:
He has a nice tail set. . Nice comb, nice feathered shanks, good leg color and he appears to have good type. Correct ear covert color & Good eye color.....this is what amazes me, the good eye color and correct ear covert color on a bird that is dark, and is one of the biggest reasons I would still breed him.......pretty hard to get a very dark bird, (he would be considered dark) to throw correct eye color and ear covert color. It has been my experience (because I work with some "too dark" birds) that birds that are dark or over melanized, usually, will have dark eyes, dark ear coverts, dark horn beak, dark legs and very dark copper to maybe only some on the wing bow or saddle areas like your guy is showing, some will not show any copper in the wing bow area at all. I just don't know where he got the light colored beak...yet presents as a dark bird. Using him over an overly red pullet or hen will probably throw some nice colored (hackles) in his female offspring. Is he pretty young? Have you grown out any of his offspring yet?

 

[6littlechickies]

Quote:
WoW! Was I ever close when I made assumptions about him and his coloring as being dark, when you posted those other photos of him before.
I like him! I would use him....even with his "too dark" issues....here's why:
He has a nice tail set. . Nice comb, nice feathered shanks, good leg color and he appears to have good type. Correct ear covert color & Good eye color.....this is what amazes me, the good eye color and correct ear covert color on a bird that is dark, and is one of the biggest reasons I would still breed him.......pretty hard to get a very dark bird, (he would be considered dark) to throw correct eye color and ear covert color. It has been my experience (because I work with some "too dark" birds) that birds that are dark or over melanized, usually, will have dark eyes, dark ear coverts, dark horn beak, dark legs and very dark copper to maybe only some on the wing bow or saddle areas like your guy is showing, some will not show any copper in the wing bow area at all. I just don't know where he got the light colored beak...yet presents as a dark bird. Using him over an overly red pullet or hen will probably throw some nice colored (hackles) in his female offspring. Is he pretty young? Have you grown out any of his offspring yet?

thanks pink! I do like him myself (of course I'm biased tho). Yes he's still pretty young, about 10 months if I recall correctly without looking at my records. Up until around Christmas he was in the main pen but not the dominant Rooster (his daddy was) but daddy was sold so he moved up the ranks. I have some of his chicks but alas they aren't old enough to see how they will fully feather yet. So far I've been pleased with what I'm seeing though, have a few here i'm keeping my eye on. We will all get to see how some of his offspring grow out though, thanks to adozengirlz!

I may also need to look for some overly red girls, just to see how that pairing would look. anyone got one or two they'd like to part with?

 

[Wynette]

Yes, he's definiteley overmelanised. I'd love to get geebsie's opinion - she's got SUCH a good eye for these things, as well as Village Chicken - (or is it Chicken Village....sorry, I seem to keep getting them confused). I'm with Pink, and it's perplexing when you get a cockerel with good eye, ear covert, shank color, but that is also overmelanised. I, too, had thought they went hand in hand.

But, this guy, being out of my line, I'm not surprised, and most of mine are like this. I'm working hard to bring the color balance back, with help from geebsie. As I said, she's got a superb eye when it comes to this stuff, and I've been sending her OODLES of pics of birds from my line, most that I haven't kept or am not currently going to keep, just so that we can maybe figure out what's going on with them. I will ALWAYS be open/transparent with what I'm working on, and any/all feedback is uber helpful!

The only other thing on this cockerel is that to me, he lacks substance, and his back is a bit short. He's still a bit young, but by 10 months, I like to see more meat on the bones than this boy is showing. However, I've had a few that were monster big...and it takes them longer to fill out. Maybe your boy is one of them! I am also now breeding for a shorter tail...I'm personally not a big fan of the longer tails, but that's just me!

I've found that most cocks from this line to be very easy to work with & not aggressive, except when you mess with their ladies. And by "mess" I mean when one is broody, trying to lift her up to see what she's got goin' on underneath...the roos sometimes take exceptiont to it when the hens get all uppity.

 

[geebs]

I think where a lot of us get in trouble is with the standards, that is why I always defer to the French at this point.. They have bred this breed for it's lifetime and give us many clues and tips on what works. I posted the French Standard at he front of the site for reference...as well as the American proposed standard. I think things get clouded as we surmise about the SOP. When the shank color was listed as dark it caused many of us... myself included to end up overmelanising the stock... All the good intentions in the world will not breed forward good stock with faulty information in breeding strategy.. Thanks for you compliments Wynette.. I am just interpreting what I read and doing the best I can with my understanding of it...and sharing the experiences along the way... I appreciate your openness and candor.. It is really gutsy to post mistakes so openly in a passionate crew. The breeding strategy has to change as the standards bloom here. I think we are very close to the French at this point.

 

[Wynette]

Folks - just wanted to post a quick note to all going (or sending stock) to Newnan this weekend!

I wish you ALL the very best of luck, and I will be with you in spirit!

CROSSED FINGERS that we are approved Saturday!

 

[6littlechickies]

Quote:
X 2!!!!

and can add a request for someone who is there and has info to please post over the weekend!?! pictures would be most welcome too!

please!

 

[marquisella]

Quote:
We'll be ok, as long as the French stop changing the standard!

When I first got into Marans, the French Standard called for a completely black breast on both rooster & hen. Then, a while ago, the roosters standard changed to "allow" for some copper in the breast, and now, the Hen's breast has changed to allow "copper glints" whatever they are.... I'm not so sure, that the APA will be that willing to change the standard at every whim like the French do.

The question in my mind is, are they changing it for the better of the breed, or are they changing it to just fit their current birds that have evolved with more copper than in the originals?

 

[geebs]

Have they changed it since 1991??? if so I am unaware of any change... I thought that was the last change.

 

[marquisella]

Quote:
When the club had people write up the original standard, what, 2 years ago? The French standard said "black breast". That is all I know.

Then its there, allowing for copper in the breast. Was it just a change on the website?
Its been mentioned that the translation is not the best, that is another problem.