Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[seabreeze]

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts and answers.

Is the side sprig proven to be something attached to a health problem or negatively affecting egg/meat production? Or is it aesthetics in pursuit of an *ideal* of a breed standard describing the desired look?

I can certainly understand a breed standard but also as one who has learned so much from geneticists on several lists I am on, my ideas have evolved into a greater understanding of genetics, what is important (health, productivity, is it recognizable as a quality specimen, longevity etc) along with the stricter, more narrow view of producing something cosmetically perfect.

Please don't take my comments are combative, rather, as wishing to learn. I have learned so much in so short a time about chickens in general, their genetics are amazingly flexible, dynamic, complicated and endlessly fascinating so I want to learn the nuts and bolts which for me, starts from the basics of health and genetics.

So is the side sprig harmful to the bird from a health, production or genetic standpoint or by falling short of the breed standard which is a written picture of perfection, sought?

 

[geebs]

Seabreeze>>> I totally bombed the link... Thought I had deleted it.. DRAT!! srry

There is a common theme besides side sprig that has been mentioned.. I am not entirely sure that the bird is not a cross either... Without seeing an egg that it was hatched from I would suspect that it is a crossed bird... the presentation just is not right looking for a marans of any color, regardless of the faults... side sprig, short back etc... This lends nothing good to breeding him though he is beautiful... He is not a good representation...not only not good for show but likely to lose your egg color in the next generation...

 

[pinkchick]

Quote:
Just a little heads up on these Mossy chicks, they will more than likely shed out most of the brown after Juve molt. The thing I dislike about it is they will end up with Brown cast side and belly feathers. They should be black, I cull all of these anymore without exception.. Don

Germaine~ I am afraid that I am not of much use here. I've not had a chick that is as mossy as the last 2 you photo'd. I have had birds that have a couple of mossy or stippled feathers on the back area that have colored out completely black but this took until after their first molt. I did use them for breeding because they had great egg color. I have several of those offspring who are now mature laying birds and none where mossy at hatch and none are mossy now.

I must digress to Don and geebs here for their experiences and advise.

 

[pinkchick]

Quote:
In answer to your question.....I would think that a side sprig would not have adverse reactions on either health, egg production or meat production. It's a genetic issue and can pass to the offspring and is undesirable in the showring or when breeding to standards. So yes, IMO, it's an aesthetics thing in pursuit of *ideal* traits and characteristics of a bird. You might find that this male with the sprig produces very nice and meaty birds for your freezer, after all, they are a dual purpose breed.

 

[Hens and Roos]

Quote:
In answer to your question.....I would think that a side sprig would not have adverse reactions on either health, egg production or meat production. It's a genetic issue and can pass to the offspring and is undesirable in the showring or when breeding to standards. So yes, IMO, it's an aesthetics thing in pursuit of *ideal* traits and characteristics of a bird. You might find that this male with the sprig produces very nice and meaty birds for your freezer, after all, they are a dual purpose breed.

If you have the room you could always do like Pink mentioned and produce meaty birds for your freezer taking note of any offspring to see if the side sprig shows up. If you have offspring without side sprigs you could possibly do a test mating and see what another generation brings- as a project of course

 

[greatergraceoffbg]

Quote:
Side sprigs are recessive, therefore they are passed down in fowl in which they do not appear. It is nearly impossible to breed out side sprigs with a closed flock. A person bringing in new stock is sim,ply infecting the new stock offspring with the side sprig gene if crossed. The best thing to do is get new stock. People who are selling Black Copper Marans with side sprigs, (there is a very popular breeder and egg seller from Mississippi doing this) are just ripping people off. I know your logic sounds plausible, but I can tell you from years of breeding experience and observation you won't breed out side sprigs, The reason the side sprig is a fault has nothing to do with health, production etc. it has to do with the fact that Marans are a distinctive and very real local chicken in the coastal region of Marans/la Rochele France. Here in America we talk of creating breeds. A recreated Marans has no legitimate connection to the Heritage Marans of France. People from Britain can "create" lines of Marans, use the identification term Marans all they want, but they are not Marans. The side sprigs came from crossing birds with Penedenscas. The folks who did this were tryin to get different colors of Marans when we only had two or three colors. They ruined the Marans that we did have, and the reality for a lot of people is that starting over will be better than breeding out anything. Currently the same people who used the Penedenscas are using Light Sussex to "create" a so called Columbian Marans. it will in reality be a Light Sussex/Marans cross ie Mutt. There is nothing wrong with creativity, but there is a lot wrong with misrepresentation. Focusing on getting real French Lines and importing French birds just as the Orpington people and the folks at Greenfire have done with several other breeds is a much more honorable and authentic approach in the breeding of the Marans. There are a few people who have and are going this route and for those diehard Marans fans I encourage you, take the time, energy and money to pursue the REAL FRENCH MARANS!

Andy in Fredericksburg

 

[pinkchick]

Quote:
In answer to your question.....I would think that a side sprig would not have adverse reactions on either health, egg production or meat production. It's a genetic issue and can pass to the offspring and is undesirable in the showring or when breeding to standards. So yes, IMO, it's an aesthetics thing in pursuit of *ideal* traits and characteristics of a bird. You might find that this male with the sprig produces very nice and meaty birds for your freezer, after all, they are a dual purpose breed.

If you have the room you could always do like Pink mentioned and produce meaty birds for your freezer taking note of any offspring to see if the side sprig shows up. If you have offspring without side sprigs you could possibly do a test mating and see what another generation brings- as a project of course

GOOD CALL!!!!!

 

[seabreeze]

Thanks everyone for your input!!

I need to find Thom/Tom? Dean's email addy or contact information to ask him about this bird since he came from that breeder. I am curious as to what he crossed in as indicated and was there a purpose for doing this? Seems to me if you are working with perfectly good lines, why cross-breed it?

Well, I will have to wait to see if my ONE egg hatch from the Ebay lot is male or female before I make the rooster dinner for my dogs.
Thanks again everyone.

 

[Germaine_11.20]

Quote:
Side sprigs are recessive, therefore they are passed down in fowl in which they do not appear. It is nearly impossible to breed out side sprigs with a closed flock. A person bringing in new stock is sim,ply infecting the new stock offspring with the side sprig gene if crossed. The best thing to do is get new stock. People who are selling Black Copper Marans with side sprigs, (there is a very popular breeder and egg seller from Mississippi doing this) are just ripping people off. I know your logic sounds plausible, but I can tell you from years of breeding experience and observation you won't breed out side sprigs, The reason the side sprig is a fault has nothing to do with health, production etc. it has to do with the fact that Marans are a distinctive and very real local chicken in the coastal region of Marans/la Rochele France. Here in America we talk of creating breeds. A recreated Marans has no legitimate connection to the Heritage Marans of France. People from Britain can "create" lines of Marans, use the identification term Marans all they want, but they are not Marans. The side sprigs came from crossing birds with Penedenscas. The folks who did this were tryin to get different colors of Marans when we only had two or three colors. They ruined the Marans that we did have, and the reality for a lot of people is that starting over will be better than breeding out anything. Currently the same people who used the Penedenscas are using Light Sussex to "create" a so called Columbian Marans. it will in reality be a Light Sussex/Marans cross ie Mutt. There is nothing wrong with creativity, but there is a lot wrong with misrepresentation. Focusing on getting real French Lines and importing French birds just as the Orpington people and the folks at Greenfire have done with several other breeds is a much more honorable and authentic approach in the breeding of the Marans. There are a few people who have and are going this route and for those diehard Marans fans I encourage you, take the time, energy and money to pursue the REAL FRENCH MARANS!

Andy in Fredericksburg

Wow! Thank you!

 

[kathyinmo]

Quote:
Thom Dean is moving (from Missouri to Florida). He is selling off all his stock. I don't think he even has any Marans left.